pocket watch

[Russ McCrae]

Got a pocket watch for Christmas, what would be the best way to wear it with a vest? It's got a simple clip hook on the end, thanks and happy new year!

[St. George]

St. George's Notes I - Pocket Watch Protocol...
« on: May 30, 2004, 09:31:43 am »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sooner or later, a cowboy will want to begin to look more closely at his impression, wondering how to refine it a little.
As I write these, keep in mind that the notes are designed to do just that.

In C&WAS, you see the basic outfit - the boots and hats and vests and all.
Those  vests held all manner of things deemed important to a man at the time - tobacco, a Tally Book and pencil, and sometimes, even a pocket watch.

We'll talk about those today.

First off, not everyone had one.
They were relatively expensive, delicate and weren't really needed, since everybody could tell time by the sun.
Who'd need one?
Maybe a Foreman, most definitely a Railroader, a Banker or perhaps a Lawyer and maybe even an Army Officer.
Not the average cowhand, since most likely, he couldn't afford one and if he really needed one - most likely, the outfit would loan it to him for those duties he'd require it for.

Early pocket watches found in the West would've had what was known as a "Hunting Case" - meaning that the glass crystal was covered by a hinged cover that was a part of the case, as a protector.
It's that cover that you see being snapped shut with great finality.

Don't do that.

It may look "cool" in a Western for dramatic effect, but it doesn't do the watch any good at all.
The metal that serves as a catch is a fairly thin base metal and the catch itself is made of steel, so you can readily see how a hard metal - against a softer one will eventually damage the watch case.
If you're going to close the case, first push in on the latch and then close the cover completely with thumb pressure and relieve pressure on the latch in order for it to catch.
Your watch case will benefit and you'll look like you know what you're doing.

Now, there were several styles of pocket watch - Key-Wind, along with Stem-Wind, with the latter being the latest model.
Key-wound watches were wound by the use of a small key - carried on the watch chain.

The watch could be built by American Horologe Company - later Waltham Watch Company - first started in 1850 - and they were the innovators of mass-produced machine-made interchangeable parts for the industry - lowering prices for watches and many other mechanical things as well.
That key may have wound an "Eight-Day" movement - and you'd wind it on Sunday.
It could be a B.W. Raymond - a "Railroad Watch" first built by the National Watch Company - later the Elgin Watch Company - first built in 1867, or - it could be Swiss, since Swiss watches were common at the time.
If you really have something interesting - it could also be a "Repeater" where a button could be pressed to hear a chime striking to the nearest quarter-hour.
A "Railroad" watch was a watch known for superior accuracy  and was calibrated and regulated periodically to ensure such.

The watch face would feature the numerals in the Roman style, with the earlier version of "4" being read as "IIII" and later, "IV".

Incidentally - these watches were pretty good-sized affairs - the size acting as a shock absorber.
Smaller ones would be for dress and for the guys in town.

In order to accurately date your watch - you need the serial number from the watch movement - not from the watch case.
Gently pop the catch or unscrew the back cover and look at the movement's number.
Then, go to your Search Engine and type in the brand of watch and "serial numbers" and you should see one of the many collector and factory sites that have the lists available.
The serial number list for Elgin will give you movement size, number of jewels, number built, and date of manufacture.
Nice stuff to know and easy, besides.

A pocket watch was carried on a chain and on a fob.
Watch chains had a toggle on one end for a button hole and a spring-loaded hook on the other for the watch itself.
They came in both base metal as well as precious metal, with the plated metals being most common and practical, since they were the strongest, but when you do find a nice gold-plated one, a bit of polish will quickly restore it to its former glory, so keep your eyes open.
There are a lot of styles, so pick one you really like.

Watch Fobs are another matter entirely.

Quickly, they featured a thin leather strap, with doubled ends - one for the watch - the other for a small metal (usually) charm or advertising piece, and were carried in the vest pocket or watch pocket of the trousers - the strap allowing for easy removal to check on the arrival of the Stage.

We'll talk about those at a later time, along with the small watch charms.

Scouts Out!

[St. George]

St. George's Notes II - Watch Fobs and Charms...
« on: June 03, 2004, 02:09:07 pm »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Earlier, I spoke of pocket watches and such.
Now, we'll look into those accouterments called "Watch Fobs" and "Watch Charms", and you'll see what a wide array of the things can be found for refining your impression.

The watch chain was made up of links - pretty obvious, when you think on it.
At one end, there was a toggle - to fasten through a buttonhole on your vest, and on the other, a snap hook for your watch.
They were sometimes referred to as "Dickens" chains, popularized by the British novelist who'd visited the States some years before.
These chains came in both precious metal and plated metal - and could be quite plain or ornate - depending upon personal tastes.
They also offered a perfect place for the watch key that was mentioned earlier.

As a matter of fact - the various "keys" given by Lodges and Fraternities all descend from the small watch key.

On an earlier-manufactured chain, you'll notice a short "drop" chain that would lend itself to the use of that key.
Watch Charms were often suspended on these chains - simply for decorative purposes or for whimsy, since you'll see all manner of "Good Luck" charms, Cigar Cutters, Political items and even Souvenirs hung from them.

A "Fob" was somewhat different.
It was a thin leather strap with a buckle that would thread through the loop of your pocket watch on the short end, while the longer end would hold some form of advertising.
You carried the watch in a watch pocket, with the added strap there to be able to easily extract the watch from the depths.

Here's where it gets interesting - from a collector's standpoint and for a good impression, since the average working cowboy would most likely have worn one of these as opposed to a chain that could get itself entangled.
That - he'd save for town.

There are a LOT of watch fobs...

Men continued to carry pocket watches until the 1930's when finally, wristwatches overtook them in popularity.
The first "wristwatches" were worn by British officers during WWI and were primarily a Ladies watch encased in a leather "shell" with a strap.
This means that the fob itself had a long production life - to eventually be supplanted by the ubiquitous keychain with its tag.

The watch fob was sort of the "Gimme Hat" or "Logo T-Shirt" of its day and everyone used them for advertising - whatever their product was.

In my collection - I have fobs from Saddlery shops, Horse Shoe manufacturers, The Union Pacific Railroad, Lumber companies, and the list goes on.
They're made of Celluloid, Leather, Brass, Pot Metal and Bronze.
The front (obverse) will feature the name of the concern and what the product is, while the back (reverse) may feature an endorsement, address, or dealer's name.

If you're lucky - it'll also have the manufacturers name of who made the fob.
Not all do - but real ones often do.
After all - the fob maker was advertising his wares as well...

The fakes can have a "blurred" manufacturer's name - to add "value" associated with age and wear and to avoid any possible legal problems if that maker is still extant.

Watch fobs have always been a low-cost, popular collectible, but today, we have to deal with fakers and believe me - they are prolific as hell.
Any search through ebay will illustrate that point as you look at all of the saddlery fobs alone.
Modern fakes abound in Pewter and in Sterling (or marked so), and will generally have a "hook" to them - they'll be tied into some "Cowboy" or "Old West" event or ranch, and they're most commonly seen at the gun shows an flea markets.

Should you stop looking at the ones you see there?
No - you never know what can surface.
Just look more carefully for "bubbles" (from the mold release) and for a "feel" of "newness".
Real watch fobs are old - and there's a "look" to them.

In some cases - the fob looks like what's being sold - a saddle, maybe, or a stove or wheel.
It may be Livestock Exchange, or Cattleman's Association or even a Hide Processing firm that features a building of some type.
In others, it's something the obverse design is wholly unrelated as to product, but eye-catching, nonetheless - and it's reverse has the needed information to make it of interest to an Old West collector.
Leather conchos from saddles were often stamped with the maker's name and slotted for a strap and given away.

As I'd said - there are a lot of watch fobs...

Makers include - but are not limited to:
Any manufacturing saddlery with a stamp
Bastian Brothers
Robbins
Green Duck
J.P. Cooke
Fonda Brothers
Bergman Jewelry
And the list goes on and on...

These were often made by the various manufacturing jewelers of a city, or by stamp makers, and there are a myriad of manufacturers - which is actually working in your favor, since sometimes, it allows you to actually research the businesses involved and to date your find.

As an example - El Paso Saddlery fobs are popular - the brass "saddle" ones being commonly seen - but some time back a guy in Missouri got the dies and has been making them ever since.
In the 1980's, though - El Paso Saddlery made a second style of fob - that of their 1890 holster with a Colt inside - and on the reverse - the address complete with zip code.
Now - that's an example of a reintroduced piece that's easily dated, and a "real" fob - as opposed to the faked one - since it came from the company (if anyone has one to spare...).
R.M. Bachman made a modern fob as well - you know him as "Old West Reproductions", and for my money, the fobs produced by modern holster makers are good, solid pieces worth adding to your collections - they're just not old ones.

The average C&WAS shooter may just want a nice-looking piece for his overall "look", but the more advanced cowboy will be the guy out there researching what he can and looking carefully at collections as he finds the "perfect" fob to go along with his 1893 Elgin pocket watch.

They're out there - they just take time to find, and there's really no good reference that I can offer up.
The reprint catalogs of Sears and Montgomery Wards will show chains and "Secret Society" charms - but as far as the advertising fobs go - you're on your own.

I found the fob I use in a shop in Texas - a "Haney" saddle.
The Fonda Brothers of Omaha, Nebraska made the fob and it's so marked.
Yeah - it's "that" Fonda family.
They were manufacturers of stamps and dies.
Haney manufactured saddlery and harness, and Sears (The Rose Pattern saddle ) was a major buyer.
For the time - late 1880's - 1900 - they were a big-time concern, with a two-story building and 200 employees.
Today, even the Haney family doesn't know anything about their forebears, since they destroyed all of their records around WWII, and went into the shoe repair business.

Anything you feel you can add to this is appreciated - and thanks.

Scouts Out!

[GunClick Rick]

I gotta get a bigger vest!

[joec]

I actually have one made by Waltham Watch Company as well as all the papers that came with it and a felt bag. Mine was made in 1912 but doesn't work though it is repairable. It has the winding mechanism on the top and is a fairly plan gold watch with a little engraving on the front crystal cover. I have a similar modern watch that I carry daily as I never could get used to wrist watches.

[Russ McCrae]

Thanks for the info, anyone got a picture of the fobs? I got an idea of what they are and I'd rather have that on it then a chain. Thanks again

[Pay Dirt Norvelle]

Speaking of Swiss watches.  I have a key wind from somewhere in the 1880s marked Paul Breton Geneva.  It keeps fairly good time. 

[Rube Burrows]

I gotta get a bigger vest!

I have that same watch. Its makes a nice carry watch and awesome replica.

[St. George]

As mentioned above - look at ebay under 'watch fob'.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Gun Creek Phil]

I also like pocket watches , mine is a Waltham PS Bartlett, key wind key set from 1868,  in nice running condition.

[StrawHat]

Mine is a Ryerson made by the National Watch Company in 1870.



The "Railroad" or "standard" watch was a product of the need for uniformity of time and keeping to a schedule.  In 1891 two trians collided near Fremont Ohio because the timepiece of one of the engineers had stopped and restarted.  After that, watches had to conform to standards and were periodically tested for accuracy.  The average citizen did not carry a "standard" watch.  My Ryerson looses about 4 minutes a day but I correct it when I wind it.  It is a key wind, key set mechanism and requires daily windings.  As has been pointed out, good for town but not so good on the range.

[Russ McCrae]

Yup but it's a small accessory that falls under the classic cowboy category (even though like y'all pointed out most cowboys wouldn't have it) because of my age I'd probably be a foreman or corporal in south Texas, or a range detective (think Durham and King Ranch) and would have a watch for town business.

Thanks for the info y'all!!!

[StrawHat]

Watches were also important enough to be left to survivors of the owners.  Perhaps you recieved yours on the death of a friend or family member?  Certainly a workable solution for a personna.

[St. George]

That's likely to've happened much later in an Impression's life.

If he were a working cowhand, one of the old 'Dollar Watches' made by Ingersoll would be more common than anything else available, and he'd still be more likely to spend that dollar on something more useful, since he had few to spend.

Now if he were more 'established' - with more work being done from the hurricane deck of a roll-top desk - a middle-price-range pocket watch'd much more be common, since his job would deal more with 'time' and meeting schedules and such.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Russ McCrae]

I'd say the vibe I'm going for is I was a ranger for awhile and went to work at one of the big coastal ranches patrolling the ranch and traveling with the ranch owner when needed. Reading Durham's account of how he came to be in south Texas pretty much goes along those lines. I also made for this watch a leather fob since its like y'all said a loaner until later on when I get my own mid-range pocket watch

[St. George]

Look for an Elgin or Waltham - they made boatloads of them and you should be able to find a nice one pretty easily.

The other benefit is that in most cases, someone will still be able to work on them, because parts can be found.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fox Creek Kid]

...My Ryerson looses about 4 minutes a day but I correct it when I wind it...

For the period that is superb precision. Remember, no quartz or CNC machines in 1870. Everything hand fitted. 

[GunClick Rick]

And what a treasure to find someone that can still work on them.We have a feller here in town that has been doing it since i can remember,i basicly grew up on Main St. and i would walk in the stores just to see what people did,i still do it.Alot of my family worked for places like Woolworths and such and they were all on Main.The last time i walked in the Jewelry store he was still there with the magnifying glasses and his eyes focused on a repair,might be time to go by and say howdy again.I hope it is not a dying art like Jukebox repair,i have a 1940 Wurly jukebox that just needs cleaning and a couple small parts,but i can't find no one to work on it and i don't dare..

[Curley Cole]

Here is one I wear most of the time...(no pun..) anyways it is one of Will Ghormleys hand of god crosses, attached to my watch chain. The belt buckle I am really proud of. It is one of Wills in Sterling Silver, that he prob. won't make any more in silver or gold..just too costly to do....

curley

[StrawHat]

And what a treasure to find someone that can still work on them.We have a feller here in town that has been doing it since i can remember,i basicly grew up on Main St. and i would walk in the stores just to see what people did,i still do it.Alot of my family worked for places like Woolworths and such and they were all on Main.The last time i walked in the Jewelry store he was still there with the magnifying glasses and his eyes focused on a repair,might be time to go by and say howdy again.I hope it is not a dying art like Jukebox repair,i have a 1940 Wurly jukebox that just needs cleaning and a couple small parts,but i can't find no one to work on it and i don't dare..

If your tinker is still accepting repairs, please get me the contact info.

Thanks