BP in .45 Colt

[PJ Hardtack]

Been in 'winter mode' of late, casting/sizing/lubing and reloading; a lot of it for the .45 Colt.

Bullets have been commercial hard cast 250 gr RNRPs, Lyman 255 gr RNFPs/SPG lube and 230 RN commercial. Powders have been Tite Group, Trail Boss and Red Dot; xxx grains of each. With the exception of TB, the powder charges seem miniscule in the .45 Colt case.
Then I did up a batch using FFg and SPG lubed Lyman 255 RNFPs ..... no trick at all to get 35 grs into the cases. All of a sudden, things seemed 'right' insofar as the powder charge was concerned.

I used my Lyman DPS III 'lectronic dispenser which gives sufficient time to drop tube a charge, seat and crimp a bullet while the next charge is being dispensed. No wad, compressing the powder with the bullet, which caused no problems.

[Dick Dastardly]

Sounds like there's some learnin' goin' on.  If that ammo is to be shot out of a rifle, you may need to clean often to avoid accuracy loss.  SASS main match shooting is intense enough that bullets without enough bullet lube can, and frequently do, cause hard fouling toward the muzzle end of the rifle.  If that happens, accuracy goes away.

DD-DLoS

[Steel Horse Bailey]

What Dick said.   Using hard-cast bullets requires a LOT of lube!  The fact that it is SPG is good, but probably not enough in the rifle.

When I found this out, my bullet strike was off more than a foot from the aiming point at about 20 feet!

It was VERY exasperating!

[cpt dan blodgett]

You can always reduce the charge some what, stick in a wad topped with a lube cookie and either just the bullet or another wad and the bullet or another wad,wax paper and the bullet to keep the wad from sticking to the bullet.  Probably only useful for log range shooting.  I am not sure it is required on most CAS target where you rub the blueing off the muzzle on the targets

[Steel Horse Bailey]

You can always reduce the charge some what, stick in a wad topped with a lube cookie and either just the bullet or another wad and the bullet or another wad,wax paper and the bullet to keep the wad from sticking to the bullet.  Probably only useful for log range shooting.  I am not sure it is required on most CAS target where you rub the blueing off the muzzle on the targets

Cpt. Dan has a point, but that goes back to what I said about needing more lube.  How you get MORE lube is the ticket.  A lube cookie is certainly one way ... but it adds mess, changes what you have to do about powder compression, and probably doubles or even triples the time it takes to load one round.

For a pistol, you could even squirt some lube on the tip of the bullet after they're loaded just like can be done with lube on a Cap'n'Ball gun.  It's messy, but you WILL have enough lube.  On a rifle, however, this won't work.  You'll need more lube.  For rifle, you'd be well to stick to softer alloy lead (or pure) and a LOT more lube or use a lube cookie.  Without sounding like I'm a shill for Dick Dastardly, I WOULD  recommend the BigLube family off boolits (note spelling difference) to mould your own or the likes of Springfield Slim and other pro casters who sell B/L boolits already cast & lubed.

Moulds and BP goodies:  http://www.biglube.com/
Pre-cast 'n lubed B/L boolits:  http://www.whyteleatherworks.com  (and others as seen on DD's links page)

[Ranch 13]

What brand of 2f powder are you using? I've had good results with both goex and schuetzen. Haven't tried the KIK in the handgun and wcf cartridges yet, but in rifles it's velocity has been spot on Goex express , and shoots almost as clean as 5744.

That Lyman dps is a great thing to use isnt' it? I really enjoy mine.

[Mako]

Been in 'winter mode' of late, casting/sizing/lubing and reloading; a lot of it for the .45 Colt.

Bullets have been commercial hard cast 250 gr RNRPs, Lyman 255 gr RNFPs/SPG lube and 230 RN commercial. Powders have been Tite Group, Trail Boss and Red Dot; XXXX of each. With the exception of TB, the powder charges seem miniscule in the .45 Colt case.
Then I did up a batch using FFg and SPG lubed Lyman 255 RNFPs ..... no trick at all to get 35 grs into the cases. All of a sudden, things seemed 'right' insofar as the powder charge was concerned.

I used my Lyman DPS III 'lectronic dispenser which gives sufficient time to drop tube a charge, seat and crimp a bullet while the next charge is being dispensed. No wad, compressing the powder with the bullet, which caused no problems.

PJ,
First of all you really need the correct bullets for BP if you're going to shoot them in a rifle.  You can get away with too small of grooves for revolvers, but you'll foul out even a 19 or 20 inch carbine/rifle barrel.  Look at these bullet designs:



The one in the middle is a .44, but you should see the common theme.  The Lyman bullets and almost all others have grooves designed for smokeless lube.  You need a BIG lube like the one on the right for reliably shooting a match.  Otherwise you are going to have to pull a bore snake through ever so many stages and even that doesn't solve your problem.  If you aren't getting a lube star then you don't have enough lube:


Let me show you what one of our more experienced and skilled posters did to get a reliable and very accurate .44wcf bullet.  You know him as w44wcf on this forum and he does excellent research and development work (I'd hire him as an R&D engineer).



Do you see what he is doing?  The middle bullet was designed to approximate the Lyman bullet on the left which is a very accurate bullet, but didn't carry enough lube for extended shooting.  He removed the middle band and had the middle design executed as a mold.


This is a Lyman he modified on a lathe:


If you are going to shoot a multi-stage CAS event then you need to think strongly about getting some bullets with big grooves.  The PRS I show above is an excellent choice.  Dick sells the molds and Springfield Slim will sell you beautiful lubed bullets at a very fair price.

One last thing... Go back in and modify your original post.  Remove the powder amounts you listed for the smokeless loads.  There is an enforced rule on this forum about posting any smokeless loads.  It will be removed once Cuts notices it.  You can post black powder loads to your hearts content, but "smokiless" is verboten.

Regards,
Mako

[Springfield Slim]

That Accurate 43-215c is sure a nice looking bullet. If I didn't already have 44 Big Lube moulds AND if I could get it in a 6 cavity I would probably offer that instead. Tom at Accurate did my 140 grain 38 BP bullet mould. He makes quality stuff.

[Cuts Crooked]

I noticed it.......and I "fixed" it. I'm in a generous mood tonight, just got done butcherin' a fat eight pointer and it's all in the freezer so I can afford to be nice!

[Dick Dastardly]

Good on you Cuts!  Bambi in the cooler is cool.

DD-DLoS

[PJ Hardtack]

Whoa! Some folks is assumin' this ol' hoss ain't been around the corral fer long ....

I said I did some casting and loading, some with hard cast and smokeless, one batch of .45 Colt and 44-40 with BP. Alloy was my BPCR mix. The .45 Colt bullet was the Lyman 452664 RNFP with two grease (SPG) grooves. This is the traditional Colt .45 bullet, I believe.

I expect this to be sufficient lube for BP and in the event it causes problems in a rifle during a match, that's why I bought bore snakes. Dropping one thru' a barrel at lunch time is no hardship.

[Tascosa Joe]

I have been shooting the 454190 with SPG lube over 36 gr of Goex 2F for years and have never had a problem shooting a 6 stage match w/o cleaning.  You have to clean at 6 stages but......I have had good luck with it.
T-Joe

[Mako]

I have been shooting the 454190 with SPG lube over 36 gr of Goex 2F for years and have never had a problem shooting a 6 stage match w/o cleaning.  You have to clean at 6 stages but......I have had good luck with it.
T-Joe

Joe,
Sounds like you have better luck than most or there would be no market for the Big Lube Bullets.  That Lyman Bullet is accurate with smokeless loads and even BP, but even w44wcf found it needed modification as shown above.

Which rifle and what barrel length are you shooting it in?  I found with even the 20 inch barrels you would get a hard patch beginning to form about three to four inches from the muzzle and it just got progressively crustier and drier.

Are you getting a lube star on the muzzle of your rifle?

Regards.
Mako

[Abilene]

I, too, have had good luck with 2-lube-groove bullets.  A few years ago I bought a bunch of Black Dawge Bullets for my 44-40 and .357 '73 carbines and I'm still using them.  I'm sure that these being 19" barrels instead of longer is part of the success.  I do not have a lube star at the end of the muzzle but cleanup is always easy and I rarely miss a rifle target.  Last Saturday at the Caballeros after 58 rounds in the main match I shot 3 rounds out of the .357 carbine at the 77-yard target at stage 1 and dinged it 3 times.  Occasionally in very dry weather after 3 or 4 stages I will shoot a light mist of water down the bore before loading the carbine.  Don't know if it helps but it hasn't hurt.  If I ever start casting it will definitely be biglube pills but in the meantime...it don't appear broke so I ain't fixin' it 

[Mako]

I, too, have had good luck with 2-lube-groove bullets.  A few years ago I bought a bunch of Black Dawge Bullets for my 44-40 and .357 '73 carbines and I'm still using them.  I'm sure that these being 19" barrels instead of longer is part of the success.  I do not have a lube star at the end of the muzzle but cleanup is always easy and I rarely miss a rifle target.  Last Saturday at the Caballeros after 58 rounds in the main match I shot 3 rounds out of the .357 carbine at the 77-yard target at stage 1 and dinged it 3 times.  Occasionally in very dry weather after 3 or 4 stages I will shoot a light mist of water down the bore before loading the carbine.  Don't know if it helps but it hasn't hurt.  If I ever start casting it will definitely be biglube pills but in the meantime...it don't appear broke so I ain't fixin' it 

You believe in flying monkeys too...

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

But you have to admit those Black Dawge bullets have bigger grooves than the Lyman 454190.  Am I going to have to sing songs about the man with the beautiful pistols and the bullets that go ding now?

Merry Christmas Abilene!!!

I sent you a PM about the '78 shotguns at Cimarron.  See you next year...

~Mako

[Abilene]

You believe in flying monkeys too...
...

Of course I believe in flying (screaming) monkeys...I have one that came with a "Random Bag O'Crap" that I got in a Woot-Off from Woot.com last year. 

And you can sing all you want about my pimp guns.  Even though they shoot hardcast unlubed bullets with butter-flavor Crisco over the bullets in the cylinder    And I have yet to shoot a clean match with them while shooting Gunfighter style.  Maybe because I never do that "P-Word" 

Merry Christmas to you!

Abilene

[john boy]

Here's the bullet I have been using since December 2009, cast with 13.5 or 15.4 Bhn WW's ...


... with 30 or 35gr using up old dirty 2004 and 2007 KIK FFG, lubed with 40:40:20 of tallow:paraffin:beeswax and shot from a pair of Ruger OM SSBH 4 5/8" and primarily a 24" Rossi '92.  Two annual 10 scenario State Matches are past plus the monthly CAS matches, summer months twice a month.

After 5 scenarios of the State matches, at home just wiped the firearms down and the revolvers got a couple of drops of Eezox on the base pins ready for the next day's shooting.  At the end of 10 scenarios - with no  need to lube during any of individual ones and no lube starvation and no leading and no bound cylinders

Since December 2009 - I've had none of the issues that are associated shooting bullets with insufficient lubrication with these 454190 reloads

[Mako]

Well folks I quit...

It seems everyone who uses a big lube bullet is an idiot or simply hood winked and they are nothing but snake oil.

w44wcf has also been wasting his time with those wide groove variants of those otherwise accurate bullet designs.  Sorry John, I hate the fact you wasted all of that time and money developing those new bullets and I guess we need to go on all of the different forums where you talked about the design and development of those bullets and tell everyone who bought molds from Accurate they just wasted their time and money.

~Mako

[Cuts Crooked]

.......and THAT my friends is what America is all about! "Viva La Difference!"

I have long held that there is no "one path" to follow to the Darkside, what works well for one may not work as well for another. And sometimes "conventional wisdom" is not the best answer.

[fourfingersofdeath]

Big loobe moulds are not essential for black powder, just easy! No fuss, easy loading, bang! lotsa smoke, everything is dripping wet from the loobe, too easy as we say here.

Other types work very well also, but the big loobe just grease the rails so to speak. No need to spit the dummy and leave the fire.