Question on Single Action Colt clone

joec · December 15, 2011, 05:58:42 PM

I have an older ASM Colt 1873 Clone that I'm the third owner off. Now the gun shots great with one exception. If you pull back the hammer when it reaches the 3rd step (just before fully cocked) it doesn't lock which is not unusual. Now at that point if you touch the cylinder slightly rotating it the gun locks up completely. You can take it back to full cock or release the hammer. The only fix is to pull the cylinder pin at this point then remove the cylinder. Reset the hammer to proper location (2nd position) then put it back together. If you cock it as you would shooting normally you might never see it happen but if done slowly it will happen.

At any rate anyone have an idea of what part/parts are worn or what else could be causing this. Thanks.

Pettifogger · December 15, 2011, 06:29:43 PM

You are missing something in your description as it doesn't make sense. "Touching the cylinder slightly rotating it" and the gun then locks up would normally indicate a hand problem. Then you say "You can take it back to full cock or release the hammer." What is this supposed to mean? Is there a trigger pull in there somewhere? What is it doing that is wrong? Your next sentence reads, "The only fix is to pull the cylinder pin at this point then remove the cylinder. Reset the hammer to proper location (2nd position) then put it back together." The only fix to what? Not trying to be a sarcastic, just trying to figure out what you are talking about and diagnose the problem.

joec · December 15, 2011, 07:11:59 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on December 15, 2011, 06:29:43 PM
You are missing something in your description as it doesn't make sense. "Touching the cylinder slightly rotating it" and the gun then locks up would normally indicate a hand problem. Then you say "You can take it back to full cock or release the hammer." What is this supposed to mean? Is there a trigger pull in there somewhere? What is it doing that is wrong? Your next sentence reads, "The only fix is to pull the cylinder pin at this point then remove the cylinder. Reset the hammer to proper location (2nd position) then put it back together." The only fix to what? Not trying to be a sarcastic, just trying to figure out what you are talking about and diagnose the problem.

Sorry having trouble getting used to the keyboard on this new laptop. I will try again.OKOk cock the hammer back to the third click (1 before full cock) and move the cylinder the slightest amount will lock up the gun. Now by lock up, I mean you can't take the hammer back to full cock ready to fire position or release the hammer. The only fix at that point it to pull the cylinder pin and remove the cylinder then the hammer will move as it should. At this point you can set the hammer to reinstall the cylinder and pin and guns cycles fine. I discovered this while cleaning it and my 2 Uberti guns won't do it. I was wondering what in the gun is not operating correctly that would cause this.

Pettifogger · December 15, 2011, 07:23:27 PM

I guess I'm still missing something. First click, safety notch. Second click, half-cock notch. Third click, bolt dropping onto cylinder. Fourth click, bolt drops into notch and hammer hits the full cock notch. (Sometimes if you cock REAL slow, you will get a fifth click as bolt drop and hammer on the full cock notch are seldom perfectly in time.) If you are manually holding the hammer at the "third" click area and moving the cylinder the bolt is going to drop and the cylinder won't move anymore. Right around that area cylinder rotation moves from the top tooth of the hand to the second tooth. You may be right at the overlap point. If you just cock the gun normally does it function OK? If it works OK when you cycle it normally, it sounds like you are inducing a problem and the gun is fine.

joec · December 15, 2011, 07:47:12 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on December 15, 2011, 07:23:27 PM
I guess I'm still missing something. First click, safety notch. Second click, half-cock notch. Third click, bolt dropping onto cylinder. Fourth click, bolt drops into notch and hammer hits the full cock notch. (Sometimes if you cock REAL slow, you will get a fifth click as bolt drop and hammer on the full cock notch are seldom perfectly in time.) If you are manually holding the hammer at the "third" click area and moving the cylinder the bolt is going to drop and the cylinder won't move anymore. Right around that area cylinder rotation moves from the top tooth of the hand to the second tooth. You may be right at the overlap point. If you just cock the gun normally does it function OK? If it works OK when you cycle it normally, it sounds like you are inducing a problem and the gun is fine.

It does cock fine when pulling the hammer back under normal use while shooting. I didn't notice it till cleaning and have shot the gun for about 8 months now without it occuring even after cleaning in the past. I discovered it by accident really in the process of cycling it after lubing it. I set the gun down on the the bench on the third click thinking it was the full cock (hammer went to that position when I released the hammer) and when I picked it up went to take it to full cock and it was locked. I've shot the gun since without any problems at all. I was just wondering if something in the gun is getting worn and perhaps needing replacement. As I said my two newer Uberti can't be made to do this at all. The gun is well used with no idea when it was made but I'm the third owner of it and no idea how many rounds through it.

Pettifogger · December 15, 2011, 07:59:45 PM

There is nothing at the "third click" to hold the hammer back. What you did was cock it far enough for the bolt to drop and then lowered the hammer into the half cock notch. At that point the hammer couldn't be pulled back because when the cylinder moved the bolt dropped into the locked position. You just got the gun out of time. Doesn't sound like anything is wrong. You can force the same effect with any Colt or clone. That is one of the reasons everyone will tell you to never drop the hammer from the half cock notch. You should always cycle the hammer through its full travel and lower it from the full cock notch.

joec · December 15, 2011, 08:05:05 PM

Quote from: Pettifogger on December 15, 2011, 07:59:45 PM
There is nothing at the "third click" to hold the hammer back. What you did was cock it far enough for the bolt to drop and then lowered the hammer into the half cock notch. At that point the hammer couldn't be pulled back because when the cylinder moved the bolt dropped into the locked position. You just got the gun out of time. Doesn't sound like anything is wrong. You can force the same effect with any Colt or clone. That is one of the reasons everyone will tell you to never drop the hammer from the half cock notch. You should always cycle the hammer through its full travel and lower it from the full cock notch.

OK thanks Pettifogger, I won't worry about it then. As I said I thought the gun was at full cock, hence it happened.

Devil Anse Hatfield · December 15, 2011, 09:36:06 PM

If the hammer was at full cock .The cylinder shouldnt rotate

joec · December 15, 2011, 09:57:29 PM

Quote from: Devil Anse Hatfield on December 15, 2011, 09:36:06 PM
If the hammer was at full cock .The cylinder shouldnt rotate

It won't, and only rotates on half cock as it should. The problem was on the third position there is a bit of play in the cylinder but not when at full cock.

Devil Anse Hatfield · December 16, 2011, 09:37:21 AM

4 clicks COLT
3 positions Hammer
1 st position safety notch ( I dont nor would I tell anyone to use) Also not on Transer bar units from Beretta
2nd position Half Cock.... Cylinder will rotate to allow loading chambers
3rd Click
3rd Position( 4th CLICK ) Full Cock Cylinder locked up ready to fire.
Pettifogger is right on the money.

Their is no other position for the Hammer to lock in. The 3rd click you hear is bolt action to lock up into full cock . So that chamber is locked into correct position to fire.
By pulling hammer back and hearing 3rd click ( no place to lock hammer their) then holding it and turning cylinder is asking to lock the gun up . Then when you let lose of hammer it drops back to second position (Half Cock).
By turning cylinder at the 3rd click you are also putting a ring on the cylinder as the bolt is up and ready to lock up in notch.

The cylinder has to move during the 3 click to allow the bolt to drop in to lock up. At the fourth CLick the cylinder should be locked into position to fire. The cylinder might move a fraction at 4th click same as it might with hammer down. Any more than that and it has a problem .

Funny this should come up now as last week I had to explain this to a man at the gun show who was checking in my gun. As I told him to stop what he was doing as he was about to do the very same thing to my SAA. He ginda got gruff as My words of Stop were loud.No reason to be turning my cylinder while your pulling back on the hammer.
I understand his job and what he has to do. However if in that position one only needs to look across cylinder and look for loaded chambers not cycle the action in a incorrect manner. Or better yet learn how a SAA works. However this will probable be my last stop at that gun show. Bad location rude crowd . I will stick to OGCA shows from now on.

joec · December 16, 2011, 10:11:58 AM

Quote from: Devil Anse Hatfield on December 16, 2011, 09:37:21 AM
4 clicks COLT
3 positions Hammer
1 st position safety notch ( I dont nor would I tell anyone to use) Also not on Transer bar units from Beretta
2nd position Half Cock.... Cylinder will rotate to allow loading chambers
3rd Click
3rd Position( 4th CLICK ) Full Cock Cylinder locked up ready to fire.
Pettifogger is right on the money.

Their is no other position for the Hammer to lock in. The 3rd click you hear is bolt action to lock up into full cock . So that chamber is locked into correct position to fire.
By pulling hammer back and hearing 3rd click ( no place to lock hammer their) then holding it and turning cylinder is asking to lock the gun up . Then when you let lose of hammer it drops back to second position (Half Cock).
By turning cylinder at the 3rd click you are also putting a ring on the cylinder as the bolt is up and ready to lock up in notch.

The cylinder has to move during the 3 click to allow the bolt to drop in to lock up. At the fourth CLick the cylinder should be locked into position to fire. The cylinder might move a fraction at 4th click same as it might with hammer down. Any more than that and it has a problem .

Funny this should come up now as last week I had to explain this to a man at the gun show who was checking in my gun. As I told him to stop what he was doing as he was about to do the very same thing to my SAA. He ginda got gruff as My words of Stop were loud.No reason to be turning my cylinder while your pulling back on the hammer.
I understand his job and what he has to do. However if in that position one only needs to look across cylinder and look for loaded chambers not cycle the action in a incorrect manner. Or better yet learn how a SAA works. However this will probable be my last stop at that gun show. Bad location rude crowd . I will stick to OGCA shows from now on.

The reason I asked is in 40 years of shooting and cleaning single action guns I've never had it happen before.. I asked due to it happening one time to me and is repeatable with only this gun. I doubt it will happen again now that I'm aware of it.

Devil Anse Hatfield · December 16, 2011, 10:48:37 AM

I locked up a brand new US Firearms SAA . Was a good friends. I felt like a total ass . I knew better had been told since a kid. that the hammer must be fully cocked then lowered. Instead I pulled it back to 3 click with hand on cylinder and lowered. We had to pull cylinder to unlock and it had left a scratch on the cylinder. I later ended up buying the gun.
When you asked the question. I knew what had happened.
I tried a few shooter guns from the safe. I cant get any of mine to lock up. I can get a Beretta to stick but it has transerfer bar. But none of the true blue actions will lock up.

Devil

joec · December 16, 2011, 11:07:15 AM

Quote from: Devil Anse Hatfield on December 16, 2011, 10:48:37 AM
I locked up a brand new US Firearms SAA . Was a good friends. I felt like a total ass . I knew better had been told since a kid. that the hammer must be fully cocked then lowered. Instead I pulled it back to 3 click with hand on cylinder and lowered. We had to pull cylinder to unlock and it had left a scratch on the cylinder. I later ended up buying the gun.
When you asked the question. I knew what had happened.
I tried a few shooter guns from the safe. I cant get any of mine to lock up. I can get a Beretta to stick but it has transerfer bar. But none of the true blue actions will lock up.

Devil

My two Uberti NM won't either just the much older well used ASM will. I guess no one is too old to learn new things.