Petroleum Products and Black Powder

[Norton Commando]

Would sufficient heat help drive off any remaining naphthenic or aromatic elements from otherwise usable materials? Outdoors of course, I've no desire to poison myself.

Heat plus oil equals carbon/coke-like substance. 

Ask any old-time mechanic. In fact, the Triumph motorcycle service manuals from the 1960s talked about de-coking the cylinder as routine maintenance. This is because the old Triumph 650cc engines didn't have valve guide seals and ingress of oil into the combustion chamber was the norm rather than the exception. So, periodically you had to unbolt the cylinder head and scrape off the hard coke/carbon deposits. The Triumph manuals called the exercise "decoking", but I doubt that it was actually coke, more like hard carbon. 

[August]

Mako:

Please forgive my simple minded question.  But, if I've understood you correctly, the oft heard rumor that SPG contains paraffin may be true.  Or, at least that using paraffin as a hardening agent in BP lube would work.

Yes?

Thanks.

[Mako]

Mako:

Please forgive my simple minded question.  But, if I've understood you correctly, the oft heard rumor that SPG contains paraffin may be true.  Or, at least that using paraffin as a hardening agent in BP lube would work.

Yes?

Thanks.

August,
It's not "simple minded," it's a good question.  I've thrown up so much information that it can be hard to navigate.

Paraffin is quite commonly used in high quality Black Powder Lubes.  I'm pretty sure SPG has paraffin in it as the stiffener.

I use paraffin in my lubes, the "traditional" Mutton tallow lube has 40% paraffin in it by weight.  If it gets above about 45% it starts getting "crumbly."  that's why things like Beeswax are added to keep it stiff yet not brittle.

This is the formula for one pound and five pounds of the "traditional" Mutton tallow lube (note this formula is by weight, not volume):

INGREDIENT	RATIO	1 lb. Lube	5 lbs. Lube
Tallow	(40%)	6.4 ounces	32 ounces
Paraffin	(40%)	6.4 ounces	32 ounces
Beeswax	(20%)	3.2 ounces	16 ounces

Paraffinics get along fine with Black Powder.

Have a good one,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I can't begin to put out the kind of technical info that our Mako does.  I can only go by info I've learned over the last 40 years at the School Of Hard Knocks, 'tho I'm still a Freshman.  I'm slow, but thorough.

I started with a recipe for lube then modified it as follows.,  If I understand even half of what M has presented, I understand better now WHY it has been working.

I started with 1 lb. blocks of canning paraffin & beeswax.  A cup of Extra Virgin Olive Oil to "liquify" & soften.  (Can "slutty" olive oil be found?)

I carefully heated up the ingredients until all melted together.

Let me stress here that Beeswax is very flammable.  Many use a double boiler set-up for safety, especially if gas is used.  My stove is electric, which is good because I don't have ready capability to double boil.

When this cooled, I found it to be too hard for my plans.  I had a new PRS 250 gr. BigLube (tm) mould from Dick Dastardly.  Thanks again, Dick!  Due to deficit spending already necessary, a Lubrisizer was not available in the near future.  I STILL want a Star set-up.  So, pan lubing was my primary goal with C&B lube for all seasons was the secondary goal.  I began to add Olive Oil.  I have lost track of exactly HOW much oil went into this batch but it is close to a bottle and a half!  The paraffin really stiffens the mix!  MUCH more than Beeswax!  More B/W and a tinybit of paraffin were added when I put in too much oil.  I ended up with a lot of lube and I'm still using it.  The exact ratios are lost in time, but I have 2 different batches from the initial mix.  The largest portion, of which I still have a couple quarts (by volume) is what I use for cartridge loading all year round.  I have another, smaller batch which is probably half-again runnier for my C&B shooting.  Years ago I bought a lube squirter from Dixie.  It is made of brass and looks somewhat like a cake decorator.  It will hold enough lube for 3-4 matches, or about 100 shots.  Its a big hypodermic-lookin' thing and is VERY handy if you use a lot of over-ball lube like I do.  I don't mind the mess at all.  I also have soaked 1,500 felt wads in the lube and sometimes use only the lubed wads, but often I use BOTH.  This works best ... the lubed wad "scrapes" the bore as it travels 'thru after firing, and the over-ball lube keeps the gun operating at 100%.  It works for me.  I also still have a small amount of Spit Ball, which is no longer made, I think, but was a good lube commercially made.

YMMV

[rickk]

a tidbit about Paraffin...

If you ask for Paraffin, you are never really quite sure what you are getting.

It isn't a specific thing, but sort of a group or class of things, each slightly different at the molecular level.

The melting point of Paraffin "wax" can vary quite a bit, depending on the exact Paraffin you get when you ask for it.

Ask for Paraffin in the UK and you better bring a bottle or jug because it is typically a liquid (we call it "Kerosene" in the USA)

[Cuts Crooked]

Ask for Paraffin in the UK and you better bring a bottle or jug because it is typically a liquid (we call it "Kerosene" in the USA)

Ok....so do you ask fer "sealing wax" in the UK?

[Mako]

a tidbit about Paraffin...

If you ask for Paraffin, you are never really quite sure what you are getting.

It isn't a specific thing, but sort of a group or class of things, each slightly different at the molecular level.

The melting point of Paraffin "wax" can vary quite a bit, depending on the exact Paraffin you get when you ask for it.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=post;quote=519064;topic=41064.0;num_replies=25;sesc=c845fbbf3a3c41ee8c5edfa3fd328846
Ask for Paraffin in the UK and you better bring a bottle or jug because it is typically a liquid (we call it "Kerosene" in the USA)

Actually the paraffin "wax" that is readily available and goes by the CAS#: 8002-74-2 or 64742-43-4 is relatively consistent.  It has a range of melting pints from 116° F to 154° F and a specific gravity that is pretty much 0.9.  The Average melting point is 135° F for the first seven MSDS data sheets that showed up with a simple search.

Don't confuse the issue by getting caught up in the semantic venacular of different cultures.  Just because American call CAS#: 8002-74-2, "paraffin" instead of "paraffin wax" or because the British call kerosene "paraffin" doesn't mean it is CAS#: 8002-74-2.

Regards,
Mako

[rickk]

Cuts Crooked, I believe they would call paraffin "paraffin wax" in the UK.

From a chemical perspective, I think the UK wording my be more correct.

A buddy of mine who designs jet engines for P&W Aircraft told me that in aerospace engineering publications the word "kerosine" is now the preferred word to refer to the liquid stuff.

Kerosene is (or was) actually a registered trademark for the liquid classes of paraffin, and not a scientific term.

It does create a bit of confusion among newbies in the antique lantern collecting hobby. There are quite a few users of kerosene lamps both in the UK and the US, so the terms are sometimes confusing. They sometimes refer to what we would call kerosene as "liquid paraffin"  in the US as well when trying to make someone not realize that they are paying 10 bucks for a quart of kerosene. If someone just says "paraffin", you have to sort of figure out where they are from before you can guess as to what they are talking about - and even then you can not be positive.


Of course, none of this matters much as long as you are getting solid blocks to make bullet lube. Just don't be surprised if one batch of lube gets runny on a hot day when the last batch did not, or that in a cold winter's basement one might have to add a bit of heat to a lube-sizer reservoir full of traditionally soft BP lube formulation that never needed heat before.

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, PL-II pours exactly rignt at 180° F.  Cooler than that and it doesn't fill out the coin wrapper forms and hotter than that and it soaks thru.  The stuff melts lower, around 150° or so, but it won't pour into forms at that temperature.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

INGREDIENT  RATIO      1 lb. Lube      5 lbs. Lube
Tallow          (40%)      6.4 ounces      32 ounces
Paraffin         (40%)      6.4 ounces      32 ounces
Beeswax       (20%)      3.2 ounces      16 ounces

Mako, yes, a fine lube that came out of a 1943 issue of The American Rifleman.  Works for both gunpowder & nitro based reloads but has one weakness.  Because it is a hard non sticky lube, it falls out of the grease grooves over a period of long storage of the bullets.  Irregardless I have been using it for over 3 years now.

[rickk]

Johnboy,

I use same recipe.

My current boxes of Ebay bought Paraffin (50#) and beeswax (25#), combined with whatever it was that Dixie Gun Works was shipping as sheep's tallow this past summer makes a lube that is fairly soft and sticky above 80 degrees.

I have noticed variability in batches over many years.

I don't store mine lubed for long or the mice will eat thru the box they are in and eat the lube.

Rick

[Mako]

Johnboy,

I use same recipe.

My current boxes of Ebay bought Paraffin (50#) and beeswax (25#), combined with whatever it was that Dixie Gun Works was shipping as sheep's tallow this past summer makes a lube that is fairly soft and sticky above 80 degrees.

I have noticed variability in batches over many years.

I don't store mine lubed for long or the mice will eat thru the box they are in and eat the lube.

Rick

Rick,
I didn't press the point earlier when you were talking about the variability of Paraffin Wax.  I have found the opposite to be true, over the years I have used "Gulf Wax" manufactured by Royal Oak. That is the "wax" I have grown up with and still find readily available in the grocery and hardware stores.  I don't know how long that common brand of canning wax has been available but it's been well over half a century (probably twice that).   I actually had some from my grandmother's canning supplies I ran into about 4 years ago that had to have been purchased before 1979.  We were using the jars but my wife wanted to use newer paraffin since it would be in contact with food.  I used it for BP lube.  Upon unwrapping it had a bit more crazing on the surface but otherwise looked and acted the same.  That paraffin had been stored in very inhospitable environments like the totally uncontrolled attic.

I'd be willing to bet that Gulf Wax has changed so little since it was first marketed it probably has a melting point that that varies no more than 4 or 5% over the years.  You, yourself are using two other substances in your lube that by their very nature vary a lot because they are natural organics that vary based on the animals involved.  Animal feeds, genetics and other factors effects the fat molecules in animals and the wax secretions of honey bees.  Beeswax varies and so does tallow, yet you cited paraffin as being the suspect material in the mixture that controlled the melting point.  I beg to differ, Paraffin is the most constant portion of your entire recipe.

You were speaking of your lube getting soft above 80°, I find it is usually in the 85° to 90° range I start noticing my C&B wads getting soft in the tin at the loading table.  I have developed a "Summer Version" of the mutton tallow recipe that allows usage into the 90° and is still not runny oily feeling at 100°.  It is soft but it doesn't migrate and it performs well.

          Mutton "SUMMER" Lube

INGREDIENT	RATIO	1 lb. Lube	5 lbs. Lube
Tallow	(30%)	4.8 ounces	24 ounces
Paraffin	(40%)	6.4 ounces	32 ounces
Beeswax	(30%)	4.8 ounces	24 ounces

Note that in this lube as well as the "traditional" mutton tallow lube the amount of Paraffin remains exactly the same for the final weight of lube to be produced.  The Tallow has been reduced which radically firms the mixture.  Tallow is the ingredient that softens the mixture and gives it that greasy sticky texture.  I tried earlier versions which increased the amount of paraffin and kept the other two ingredients the same.  It was harder, but it broke out of grooves as John Boy mentioned long term storage of bullets lubricated with the "traditional" would do.  Trying again, I increased the beeswax but found it didn't decrease the "oily" residue that would come out of the lube as it sat in temperatures above 90°.  So I decreased the tallow and increased the  beeswax which gives you a lube that doesn't seem to behave differently from the traditional lube performance wise, but behaves better in the heat.

I would be curious to see if it remains longer in bullets that have been lubricated with it.  Perhaps I should lubricate 10 with each and 10 with the small amount of SPG I have in the cabinet for some long term testing.  The problem is it would have to go several years at least to replicate your results.  I never seem to have anything on the shelf that long, except for a few odds and ends "orphaned" bullets.

Try the "Summer" formula and see how it works.  If you are using it in a lubrisizer in the winter you are going to need a heater set to low on the sizer.

Of course none of this will stop the mice from eating the lube, they know a good thing when they taste it...

Regards,
Mako                                                                                       

[rickk]

Thanks Mako,

I will give your "summer lube" formulation a shot on my C+B wads.

As far as my source of paraffin wax, I usually by it in 50 # lots off ebay, origin unknown. I use it for lots of stuff besides BP lube, so I tend to look for cheap sources. Maybe I am messing myself up by doing it that way. I will pick up a box of "canning wax" next time I run across some and see how it works.

BTW, I just checked ebay to see what's up, and found someone selling 50# lots of graded paraffin wax. They have both 125 F and 130 F melting point versions.  I have never seen it graded before. What a coincidence!   But, with shipping it is close to 2 bucks a pound which isn't a super great price. I usually try to get it for a buck a pound delivered. Maybe I'll try Wally-Mart , but not right now. I avoid Wally-Mart, and the Mall, and anywhere else where people tend to collect this time of year.  The little brown truck of happiness does all my holiday shopping deliveries for me, allowing me to stay on my 40 where it is safe.

Right now it is so cold here that summer lube ain't an issue anyway. ;-)

[john boy]

I have used 2% jojoba oil in the lube with an equal reduction of the paraffin.  It softened the lube but in the search to make this tallow - paraffin-beeswax lube more sticky.  Any thoughts on what to use?

[Pettifogger]

As far as the paraffin v. paraffin wax issue I use melted Gummy Bears.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

As far as the paraffin v. paraffin wax issue I use melted Gummy Bears.

EEK!   

[cpt dan blodgett]

I have used 2% jojoba oil in the lube with an equal reduction of the paraffin.  It softened the lube but in the search to make this tallow - paraffin-beeswax lube more sticky.  Any thoughts on what to use?

Perhaps a little lanolin would make it stickier.  (if that works it will be a real switch, imagine me giving info to JB, I am usually on the receiving end and am quite grateful for all the good advice.

I was going to use that Paraffin, Beeswax mutton tallow recipe, but I got the bees wax about a buck and a half cheaper than Paraffin, so just doubled up on the Beeswax.  Added about a 1/8 part of Canola Oil. (cheaper than olive)

[Mako]

Perhaps a little lanolin would make it stickier.  (if that works it will be a real switch, imagine me giving info to JB, I am usually on the receiving end and am quite grateful for all the good advice.

I was going to use that Paraffin, Beeswax mutton tallow recipe, but I got the bees wax about a buck and a half cheaper than Paraffin, so just doubled up on the Beeswax.  Added about a 1/8 part of Canola Oil. (cheaper than olive)

Dan,
What are your ratios? And I'm a bit confused about what you are using now.  Are you using Tallow, Beeswax and Rapeseed Oil?  Or just Beeswax and Rapeseed oil?  Is there any Paraffin in your lube?

There is nothing wrong with Beeswax and Fat (either animal or vegetable) mixture.  You just want to get the consistency right.  I have read of a LOT of different formulas with just Beeswax and Tallow. A HUGE range.  4:1, 3:1, 2:1, 1:1, 1:3, 1:2, all tallow and on it goes.  There are a lot of 19th century formulas from firearms manufacturers like Marlin, Massachusetts Arms Co. Sharps, S&W and they are all over the map.

In CAS if you are a cap gun shooter what we are looking for is a lube that doesn't get runny or too soft when it gets warm and yet is workable in the winter months.  Beeswax is actually better than paraffin for that, but in my experience may be too soft for high heat summer conditions.  This is much more important for wads than bullets since we handle the wads at the hot summer matches.  That is where paraffin actually is a bit better than Beeswax in my experience, in the right ratio it stays "harder" up closer to its melting point.  Beeswax gets progressively softer which is good for a broad temperature range from January to August and is probably even a better choice for bullet grooves than Paraffin.  It may turn out the best lube for C&B wads has paraffin in it and the best lube for bullet is all Beeswax for the stiffener, or a higher ratio of Beeswax over Paraffin.

And you are right there is one thing I haven't seen anyone mention (on this thread) until you did, but if you want sticky then Lanolin fits the bill.  It is a common additive in many of the finer  lubes.  People who shoot "smokiless" propellant use alox for this same purpose, but I wouldn't use it with BP for the reasons mentioned way back at the beginning of this thread

Regards,
Mako

[zymurgeist]

The problem is that the naphthenics and aromatics are pretty much all that remain.  The paraffinics have been refined out of the "unfriendly" petroleum products.

Cuts is right if you heated it all you would do is drive off any volatiles and light constituents.  It wouldn't be Bitumen, but it would be a close approximation.  Nasty, dark and tarry.

Why would you do that anyway?  The refined oils are much more expensive than Mineral Oil, or the petrolatum byproducts.  Just buy them.  There is no advantage with BP to using a naphthenic compound, you already have all the lubricity you need with any lube, what you need is something that binds oxygen and isn't hydrophobic.

Regards,
Mako

Other way around. Would heating otherwise usable materials, paraffin oils, remove any remaining napthenics and aromatics. I've gotten some really crap industrial mineral oil over the years. Definitely not FDA approved.

[Mako]

Other way around. Would heating otherwise usable materials, paraffin oils, remove any remaining napthenics and aromatics. I've gotten some really crap industrial mineral oil over the years. Definitely not FDA approved.

Naphthenes are lighter than Paraffinics, they have already been heavily separated from the longer chain paraffins with catalytic reactions in the vacuum tower distillation fraction from which they originate and their corresponding physical-chemical properties are determined solely by the carbon chains that are present.  Oils begin about C15 and run through C20, anything above that is the beginning of tar.

The naphthenics used for the ultra-refined lubricating oils were split out with hydrocracking.    Hydrotreated, light naphthenic and heavy naphthenic oils have been partially or totally separated from paraffinic and mineral oils by that point.  All of those start as Distillate Base Oils, to be called naphthenes or a naphthenic oil they must be at least 60% naphthenes and 30% paraffins in the worst case.  The higher the naphthene ratio the higher the quality and the worse it is for BP.

You can't just continue to "refine" naphtenic  to get "more" paraffinics.  The waxes are long gone, by definition there are no waxes in naphthenic oils.  In short the paraffinics have already been largely removed.  The residual paraffinics  are such a small percentage of the remaining oil that you would end up with more of the carbon chains bordering on the C21 groups if you used heat to further drive off the lighter chains.  It's as I said you would have a tar like substance.  Note even before I didn't call it tar, because most of that was removed in the first cracking tower.

Refining naphthenic oils to try to increase the ratio of paraffinics would be akin to "distilling" a spirit like a barrel aged whisky to try and get water.  You would drive off the alcohol, but the remaining "water" is not pure by any stretch of the imagination.  It has the secretions and elements of the barrels it was stored in for years.  It would be brown and not very tasty or a "pure water". That would be analogous to your remaining oil, dark with poor properties and not very conducive to good BP usage.  The only way to get pure water from the barrel aged whisky would be to drive off all alcohol first then to distill the water, then all impurities would remain in the distillation chamber, but you can imagine how little water you would end up with.

No one would you start with a highly refined naphthenic oil to get a paraffinic residue.  It would be like someone buying expensive aged whisky to liberate the water for drinking.  If you want water, then start with water, get purified water if you want a better water.  If you decided to make all of your own distilled water or even purified water the start-up costs are high.  If you want paraffinic oil or paraffinic products then start with those.  Refined white mineral oil is an example of a refined paraffinic with all of the naphthenics removed.

I know you are asking about heating baseline paraffinics to "refine them", but cracking hydrocarbons is not as simple as just heating once you get to the longer chains.  With the short chains like methane, etc. it actually is.  You really aren't going to help yourself with simple heating, just like driving the alcohol off of the whisky won't give you pure water, you have to then distill the water.  In a sense the same would be true with the oil.  Oils and grease compatible with BP are relatively cheap, just buy those.

Even the less refined mineral oil you spoke of is probably just fine for BP, it doesn't have to be medicinal grade. Your body doesn't "digest" any of them, they all pass.  The better ones just have lower residuals like the nahpthenics.  I'll bet at some percentage it doesn't matter to BP residue anymore.  Just like the Naphthenics have to be at least 60/30 the Paraffinics have to meet that same threshold, but inverted to be called paraffinics.  But, as you know with the mineral oil there are many grades, I just can't say at what point they become "bad," but I'll bet you have a lot more leeway than you would with it being medicinally acceptable or edible.

Regards,
Mako