Henry 'blow ups'

[PJ Hardtack]

I've been present twice when three rds each went off in Henry mag tubes. Both times it was with smokeless loads and the results were similar - a splayed mag tube and fragments flying. Injury to the shooter resulted in one case.
In the case of the injury incident, the shooter slapped the nose cap shut on 10 rds as he was placing the rifle down on the loading table. In the second incident, the follower was dropped on 5 rds in a 'speed & accuracy' stage.

Is anyone aware of this happening with BP loads? If so, what was the result?

[PvtGreg]

Flat nose rounds or high primers would be my guess.  I've sent 4000 smokeless rounds down range from my Henry and no issues.  I use flat nose bullets and seat the primer so it is slightly recessed in the primer pocket.  Also I gently let the follower down on to the last round after loading.  I'd bet your 401K it was either round nosed bullets or a high primer with the follower allowed to drop on the round.

[PJ Hardtack]

Stand Easy, Pvt. .....

I wasn't askin' 'bout the probable cause, but the outcome of a BP detonation in a Henry.

In the incidents I mentioned, RNFPs were the bullets used and checking the shooter's remaining ammo did not turn up any high primers.

[Trailrider]

Black powder is a "low explosive", rather than a propellant which is what smokeless powders are.  Although I don't have any empirical data, I would expect BP to produce results equal to or greater than smokeless!  So far as the remaining rounds appearing not to have high primers, that does NOT preclude the presence of one in the round that caused the explosion.  It only takes one, possibly combined with "operator error" in not easing the follower down on the column of cartridges, and/or dropping rounds down a vertically held rifle.  I always wrap my "off" hand around the magazine and the barrel, ABOVE the nose of the top or forward-most round in the magazine.  That way if my hand slips off the thumbpiece on the follower, the follower will hit the edge of my hand rather than impacting the cartridges.  After the follower is released against the "safety hand", I can then lower it the rest of the way onto the cartridge column.

[Major 2]

Did not see it personally happen...was there, but in the next posse'
ammo were reloads but not BP ,  High primer and slipped/slammed follower was the deamed cause .... magazine was lightly deformed
Gun was repaired and sold.... 44/40 BTW

The only injury was a by stander (shooter) who got a piece of brass shrapnal in the belly , out patient surgury as it was about 1/2 " in the fat layer.

[PJ Hardtack]

Since no one is reporting incidents of Henrys blowing up with BP rounds, perhaps we can conclude that BP shooters are a little more gun aware when it comes to handling their rifles ..... ?

Sooner or later, someone will do it and then we'll know. I can wait ...... ;<)

[kurt250]

i had a discharge with a black powder 45 colt. it was when i first got the henry.i was shooting out in the desert outside of reno, nevada had two shots left so i dropped them into the magazine and let the follower go- bang! it scared the hell out of me to say the least and did a little damage to the rifle. it was my falt i didn't read the warning in the instruction booklet which clearly warned about dropping the follower. damage was as fallows 1) blew out follower . 2) jammed the bottom cartridge in reciver    didn't cause the round to discharge. 3) bulged the magazine slightly were the  round went off. was a easy fix was back into shooting it next week. got a small pice of brass case in my chest. it bled foe a short wile. i was lucky to have my friend with me who is a doctor. by the time we got back into town it had stopped bleeding . my friend took me to his office and did a quick x-ray said it was minor and would be fine in few days. it was. since then i have always been very carful loading my henry. sold the 45 and got a 44 spl henry. had it converted to shoot 44 russian . never had any problem since. moral of the story, read the instruction book before shooting a new firearm. kurt250

[PJ Hardtack]

kurt250

Thanks for manning up and telling your story. I'm surprised that there wasn't more of a violent reaction with BP loads. The mag tubes on both the blow ups I witnessed was quite spectacular, the lips badly splayed. Both were later restored with heat and pounding on a mandrel.

[Wahkahchim]

Do Winchester Model 66's blow up like this? I am thinking that this was a major design change from the Henry for this reason...or am I wrong?

[Sean Thornton]

Do Winchester Model 66's blow up like this? I am thinking that this was a major design change from the Henry for this reason...or am I wrong?

The main reasons for the change in design had nothing to do with magazine blow ups.  This was not a big problem using rimfire ammuntion.  
Reason for the change in desgin:
1.  King loading gate in the frame
2.  Cheaper production by not having the magazine and the barrel machined from one piece
3.  Closing up the slot in the magazine to allow for a "sealed" magazine
4.  Allowing for the addition of the wooded forearm

While blow ups happen today it is mainly for one reason, operator error.  The magazine follower is NEVER to be allowed to slam shut.  Those that do so are just asking for a mishap.

[PJ Hardtack]

Sean

Can't recall the source right now, but I have read that Henry mag blow ups were not unheard of with the .44 Henry RF due to the sensitive priming compound.

When I first got into CAS, I remember the real big deal that was made out of a shooter using semi-pointed .357 bullets (9mm pistol) in his Marlin carbine. I think it was much ado about nothing.

Dave Scovill did an article on the topic and it turns out that the way cartridges lie in the mag tubes of lever action rifles, it's a non-issue. One of the early French breech loaders using the pointed 8mm Lebel cartridge was a tube feeder. I've never read that it was a safety concern with the primers of the era, but the cases had a groove around the primer for the nose of the following cartridge. Contact was below 'dead centre', like in the mag tube of lever action rifles.

My own non-scientific gut feeling is that the impact of the follower hitting a column of cartridges has a percussive effect that is unique to the type. What we need is a lab test simulating the phenomenon. Any volunteers?

[Wahkahchim]

Thanks for the very useful info. My thought is that I want to carry whatever gun I have in the National Forest as well as in competition. I want to be able to use full-power (but not overloaded) black powder .44-40 loads. Most of the time, when not in competition, it will be loaded with low-level smokeless and carried as a hiking gun. And the gun will be used by my teenaged children as well. So I am thinking I should go with the Model 1866. Comments? Thanks.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks for the very useful info. My thought is that I want to carry whatever gun I have in the National Forest as well as in competition. I want to be able to use full-power (but not overloaded) black powder .44-40 loads. Most of the time, when not in competition, it will be loaded with low-level smokeless and carried as a hiking gun. And the gun will be used by my teenaged children as well. So I am thinking I should go with the Model 1866. Comments? Thanks.

Go with either.  Proper training and loading procedures will allow for NO failures.  The '66 Winchester will simply NOT have the problem.  And not dropping the rounds into the Henry magazine (the LESSER of the 2 bad procedures) and NUMERO UNO, not letting the follower slam down will alleviate the problem totally.  Can an accident happen?  Never say never, but you have a better chance of winning the Lottery than with EITHER if you stick to established safety procedures:  DON'T allow high primers - it's TOO easy to check; DON'T drop rounds into the mag tube of a Henry, and above all; DON'T-DON'T-DON'T let the Henry follower slam down on loaded rounds!

As for over-power BP loads:  can't happen.  You can't stuff enough BP into a pistol caliber case to make it over-powered.  BP is pretty safe that way. 

Teenagers can certainly handle full-power loads from a '66 or a Henry.   They're big & heavy rifles, and feel VERY little recoil from them.  Actually, the weight of the rifle itself and the length of the stock will be MUCH more of a problem than the recoil from a full load of BP or even 777 powder pushing a 250 gr bullet to those teens you mention!  My son started shooting at age 7, my youngest daughter at 10.

Your mileage may vary.  Don't be timid - there's no real reason.

[PJ Hardtack]

Steel horse has a lot more faith in the smarts of the average teen than I do ....

My experience with them is that if you give a stern warning re: ANYTHING, it falls on deaf ears. Do they listen about drugs, alcohol or driving impaired .... ? Yeah, right.

In this case, I'd go with the '66. Failing that, I'd load for the kids - EVERY time!

[Dakota Widowmaker]

3 things will contribute to a magazine chainfire.

1) primers not flush with the case
This is probably the #1 cause, as its a problem waiting for an Murphy to pay a visit

2) Types of primers
I only shoot winchester or CCI primers in my leverguns, as they are not as sensitive as Remington or Federal.

Wolf is also pretty "safe"  if rule #1 is adhered to


3) weak magazine springs
The weaker the spring, the more movement in the mag tube the rounds will experience.


I keep hearing of folks saying the need for flat nose bullets, but, I would argue rules 1-3 are more important. But, most of the Big Lube designs these days have a fairly good sized flat nose and this SHOULD not make this an issue to start with.

[Trailrider]

One reason for a few blowups in the early Henry's in spite of the ammo being rimfire, is the type of bullet originally used in .44 Henry Rimfire ammo:  Originally, the bullets were "conical ball" (i.e., pointed).  When you load a Henry, before lowering the follower, the cartridges tip downward slightly due to the rim at the rear of the cartrdige. This puts the nose of the bullet in a position slightly displaced from center. If a rimfire round had too much priming compound, which overlapped the rim into the center of the cartridge, it might be possible for the pointed bullet to set off the round ahead of it. (The Spencer was sometimes called a "fool killer" if the butt of a loaded carbine or musket was slammed on the ground, setting off the rounds in the magazine. If it happened while the gun was being fired...and you CAN hear/feel the rounds in the magazine sliding around upon and shortly after firing.)  As a result, B. Tyler Henry revised the form of the bullet with a flat meplate. This round is known as the ".44 Henry Flat Rim Fire."

A reason that the M1866 (aka the "Improved Henry") was not noted for magazine explosions is that you load cartridges one at a time through the loading gate. The magazine spring is compressed slowly as the magazine is filled.

Here's wishing everyone a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I would suspect high primer in any 1860 magazine discharge.  Just because no high primers were discovered in the other amm0 does not mean a thing. High primers can be encountered in any ammo.  I had an accidental Discharged from a Glock 23 40 S&W.  I was loading the weapon after cleaning.  I cycled the slide to chamber a round from the magazine, as as it slammed close, it discharged through the garage wall into the 1.000 acres of pasture behind the house.  I dang near soiled my underwear! I recovered the ejected case, and there was NO firing pin dent in the primer. It looked like a primed case.  It was Winchester 165 grain JHP +P LE factory ammo. 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

By the way, I have had about 4 different Henry rifles over the last 18 years.  The last one had a orangish-red rubber plug in the brass loading follower.  Anyone else have one of these gizmos in their Henry?

[Driftwood Johnson]

The last one had a orangish-red rubber plug in the brass loading follower.  Anyone else have one of these gizmos in their Henry?

Howdy

Ya mean like this?





Yes, my Henry has a reddish piece of rubber mounted in the follower. Obviously there to provide some cushioning if the follower gets loose and smacks a column of cartridges in the magazine. It's a pretty hard piece of rubber and I don't have any faith in it preventing rounds from going off in the magazine.

Regarding high primers and flying followers in a Henry. I have long suspected that it is not necessarily a high primer that causes primers to fire when slammed by the follower of a Henry. There is tremendous energy released when the follower slips out of the hands of the shooter while loading a Henry. A lot more energy than the typical hammer spring provides when it smacks the firing pin. Particularly if the magazine is close to empty and the follower slides the entire length of the magazine, allowing the spring to fully expand. I have long suspected that a high primer is not necessary to cause a round to fire in this situation. I suspect that something else is at work. I suspect that enough energy is released to allow the anvil in the primer to break the bonds of friction that holds it in place and drive it back into the priming compound, compressing the priming compound against the primer cup enough to ignite the priming compound. I do not have any proof of this, but I have been suspecting it for a long time.

Probably simple enough to prove, but I don't want to try it in my Henry.

Anyway, I don't like to take chances with my Henry. Like Trailrider, I too always wrap one hand around the magazine when loading my Henry. If the follower should dislodge from the loading position, it will hit my hand before it reaches the cartridges in the magazine. It will hurt, I have tried it. But better than setting off a column of cartridges in the magazine.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I don't have a Henry.  Been wanting one for a couple decades and I read a lot about 'em.

I think you're right Driftwood.  All it takes is the point surface of tone bullet to be smaller than the primer diameter (RN, not just pointed Spitzers or ...) and then that point to hit the primer of the round it's touching or dropped onto.  If that hit is hard enough (just like DJ says,) then a BANG is very possible.  Like you, DJ, this is ONLY your (and my) my theory, but I have long believed it to be possible.