Hard Chambering

[Tascosa Joe]

The rounds are hard to chamber in my Shiloh.  I guess I did not have the bullets seated deep enough in that batch.  Am I making a correct assumption?

[Mako]

Joe,
Chamber one and then remove it, now look at the ogive. If it is heavily engraved it is most probably too proud.

You might want to find your optimum COAL with that particular bullet by using a case that has had an expansion plug run into it that it is at, or barely under the bullet diameter.  Use a case without powder and chamber and remove it.  If it chambers more easily than your current rounds but you feel that slight resistance it should just be touching the lands.  I have taken the cartridge out, rotated it a few degrees to make sure it is  not lined up wit the lands and then reinserted it.  It should go in easily but just as the rim is engaging you should feel the lead dig into the lands.

That's my 2 cents...

Regards,
Mako

[Ranch 13]

Most bullets in my shiloh need to be seated to the driving band.
Also if you don't compress the powder enough to let the bullet fully seat without applying any pressure to the bullet nose, you may be bulging the nose just a tweak and causing the chambering problems.
Also be sure that the cases you're using are full length resized and fall into the chamber easily. Those chambers are tight and cases fired in other makers rifles first may or may not chamber.

[Tascosa Joe]

So far I have discovered Star Line Brass works better than Dixie Brass.  I will use these tips and see what happens.

Thanks,
T-Joe

[Wagon Box Willy]

I experienced the same thing with my new Winchester High Wall and my Lyman Postell loaded cartridges.  With a clean barrel they load just fine with very light marks at the ogive but after only one shot the fowling is enough to prevent me from inserting them with my thumb.  I don't know if the fowling is hard because of not enough lube, though the muzzle seems to have lube residue after firing, or the dry, cold winter air, but 4-6 blows with a blow tube seems to solve it.  I wont come to any conclusions about the lube till I try it in the spring.

Willy

[Ranch 13]

Willy what lube are you using and what are the details on your load?

[Wagon Box Willy]

Willy what lube are you using and what are the details on your load?

Ranch 13

The COAL was determined by John Boy's method, pushing the bullet in with a pencil until it stopped, then I subtracted a little from that, probably a 16th or so.

So I loaded up some more yesterday.  COAL 2.805, either 65, 67 or 70gr though so far I have only shot 70gr, and compressions of about .14x, .18x and .2x(never measured the compression on the 70gr).  The lube is Springfield Slim's beeswax, soft parraffin and 2 stroke injector oil.  Winchester W-W brass.

The bullets I loaded yesterday seem to be marking and going in a bit harder than my previous batch which was a bit shorter in COAL because I hadn't used John boys method.  

Also, the marks seem to be only on one side of the bullet with the other side marked more like what I think I'm looking for.

I've gone for a longer COAL because I wanted to reduce the compression.  At 70gr my compression was at about .4 when I sized the bullets to just touch the lands.  All help will be appreciated.  I can pull the bullets out of what I loaded yesterday and compress some more but I really have no idea what is "normal" compression and what is too much.



The other side of the bullet

[Wagon Box Willy]

One more piece of the puzzle.  This brass is all new, full length sized and then neck sized.  I notice that when I neck size it does not seem to expand the case evenly but rather one side seems to be bulged more than the other....hence the off center bullet when I seat it I think.   To prove this theory out, I had loaded one fire formed case yesterday as well and neck sized it which did not bulge out the case at all.  I just went to the gun and it slipped in with very little pressure and marks more even around the bullet and not deep like in the first picture.

Below is where I first meet resistance from the barrel and need to push.

Willy

[Ranch 13]

 Two things,
I it looks like you're either not compressing the powder enough prior to seating the bullet or you have to much neck tension and are deforming the bullet nose during seating.
You should be able to seat that bullet with the driving band exposed on top of 70 grs of goex or kik 2f. If you're shooting Schuezen or Swiss you will likely see better results by backing down to 65 grs. ( always keep in mind that Swiss and Schuetzen are sized a size smaller than comparable Goex)
Second that lube recipe doesn't sound like much and is most likely adding generously to your fouling heavy in the chamber. Might try something like DGL,White Lightning , or see if you can get some Bullshop Nasa.
If you're using magnum primers , go to the standard, I'm finding thru experiments that magnum rifle primers foul much harder than the same load with either lr or lp primers.
I'ld also suggest you get if you don't have them already either a set of Lyman dies with the M die in it, or the RCBS legacy die set, so you can use the expander to even out the neck tension. or don't resize the cases after you have fired them. Those Winchester chambers are tight buggers. The cases fired in my Shiloh won't chamber in the wives Winchester without some help..

[Tascosa Joe]

Ranch 13:
What brand of primers do you use? Right now I have CCI 350 Mag Rifle and lots of Win LP.  One of Mike V's articles in Handloader recommended the CCI, but I am open for anything.  I have not had a chance to reload or get to the range since my first post on this subject.

T-Joe

[Tascosa Joe]

Ranch:

One more question.  My running buddy and I are fixin to split an order of Swiss.  He loads 45-70 and I load 50-70 do you recommend 1 1/2 or 2F?

T-Joe

[Wagon Box Willy]

Some more clarification

Powder is KIK 2f,  Primers are WLP which are seated with a piece of copy paper, bullet size is .460, neck expander plug is .459, case chamfer is 22°.  Powder is compressed and bullet is seated by hand, no belling or seating die is used.

I do not plan on resizing the fire formed cases other than using the expander plug to size the neck.

I had just put in an order with Sageoutfitters which I just modified to add some of their lube, I'll try pan lubing some of the bullets and see how that works.

You are correct in that my measurements indicate I could seat that bullet with the driving band exposed but I haven't tried that because of the hard chambering issue thus far.

Thanks
 Willy

[john boy]

Also, the marks seem to be only on one side of the bullet with the other side marked more like what I think I'm looking for.

Willy, with no cut marks on one side of the bullet - you might want to check and see if you can wiggle the bullet in the case.  From the looks of the right bullet in the picture, your neck tension of the bullet is too loose.  Should be .001 to .002.  When it is chambered into the leade, the bullet is pushed to one side is because the neck tension is excessive

[Ranch 13]

Tascosa, I would say for the most part you're wasting money on the Swiss, you can almost get 2 cases of KIK for what 1 of the swiss will cost.Plus KIK is a lot cleaner burning than Swiss.
I have no experience with the 50-70, but the 45-70 will work just fine with either 1.5 or 2f KIK, and I would imagine the 50 to be about the same way, some might not be a bad idea to have that case of KIK split between the 1.5 and 2.
Primers I use mostly cci 350's.

[Ranch 13]

Willy you may want to get those bullets down to .458 and see if things don't work a little better.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Willy you may want to get those bullets down to .458 and see if things don't work a little better.

Ranch 13, I ordered the bullets at .460 but just measured them and they are pretty consistently .4585 at the driving bands and .451 just in front of the first driving band so I don't think it's the bullet size.   It may be not enough neck tension as I was using a .459 expander so that isn't helping matters any.

Like I said earlier I'm not planning on full length sizing the fire formed cases but I just tried a few of my once fired and with some of them the bullet just falls in so in that case I'm going to have to at least partially size it to reduce the neck size then use my Lee Expander die to set the neck tension and size.

Thanks
Willy

[Wagon Box Willy]

Willy, with no cut marks on one side of the bullet - you might want to check and see if you can wiggle the bullet in the case.  From the looks of the right bullet in the picture, your neck tension of the bullet is too loose.  Should be .001 to .002.  When it is chambered into the leade, the bullet is pushed to one side is the neck tension is excessive

JB, thanks
What were you trying to say about excessive neck tension.  I think my neck tension is too loose but I cannot wiggle the bullet.

Willy

[john boy]

I think my neck tension is too loose but I can cannot can wiggle the  bullet ... Can or can't wiggle the bullet?  Also did you remove the bell from the case mouth?

[Wagon Box Willy]

No, I cannot wiggle the bullet but since I'm sizing with a .459 expander and the bullets I just measured are .4585 they are obviously too loose though most I cannot pull out by hand after I seat them.  I am not belling at all, I just have a 22° chamfer and I push the bullet in...it feels fairly tight but I don't know what it would feel like at .458 or .457 since I don't have those expanders yet.  When I get those I assume I will have to bell the case mouth to get the bullet in.
Thanks
Willy

[Ranch 13]

Willy I'm wondering if maybe during the trip into the lubrisizer, that nose didn't get bulged a bit?