Initial cleaning of Cabelas 1860?

[Noz]

May confusion rein and may the fog of war be mighty.  Tis the way of the Dark Lord of the Soot.  May the spotters be mightily confused as the shootist rings the largest piece of steel thru the gathering haze.

So, that's Noz.  Nice fall Noz.  Takes a brave man to wear one of those in public.  My bowler hat's off to you.

DD-DLoS

Thank you gentlemen.  I wear them when gaining attention is a necessity. They were a gift from a noted lady shooter from the Kansas City area by the name of Merlot. We were attending a shoot when the weather got involved. POP 2010. We had 3.5 inches of rain while we were attempting to shoot the first 5 stages. Tempers were flaring and I felt like a little low humor might bring the angst level down. I borrow the braids, off of her head, and proceeded to act the clown. It worked. I think everyone believed that my problems were worse than theirs. She sent them to me a couple of weeks after the shoot. I have since worn them for Dooley Gang presentations and any thing else when a fool is required.
I also acquired a Possum Hat from my trip to Possum Trot this year. It's not quite as dramatic but it works as well.

[Mako]

(Mako ALSO has one of his excellent CAD drawings that illustrates my point about nipple length, etc.)

Mako is somewhat humble and I'm not sure he is the KING of Soot Lords (we're a pretty democratic bunch, with no elected officials) but if we did have royalty and/or leadership, he might well be the Science & Technology King, or at LEAST a Guru!

Jersey,
Steel Horse is being kind again.  I still maintain there are many on this board with more experience than I have, and I've been doing this to some degree for 46 years when I shot my first original Colt's '60 in my Grandfather's back yard, and now I have been doing it seriously for about 35 years.  But, there are many with more experience than I have.  There is a lot of good experience and you will learn to take some things with a grain of salt and compare it to what you know and experience shows us all.

Yeah, I can make pretty pictures and I have some experience in the fields of science and engineering that helps me (or hinders) think through some of this.  That approach can also make me be a bit less flexible.  For example you've noticed I use the traditional animal fat based recipe for my BP lube.  My education and background leads me to determine why it works and then just use it.  Other more pragmatic individuals or those just willing to try were probably using toilet sealing rings when they were Beeswax and when the manufacturers switched over to petrolatum and paraffin based rings they either kept using them, or simply tried them.  My nature is that I put on the brakes and switch to a different source of Beeswax.  Which is a better approach?  For centuries our ancestors did it by trial and error, they determined what worked and in some cases it took "overly educated" individuals years to figure out why it worked.

But in my defense I like to know why things actually work and in some cases dispel some of the misconception that has evolved about things like BP usage and in some cases I am merely able to offer an explanation of why things we know work, actually do.  

I am constantly the student and when people I trust, like many on this forum post something that seems contrary to what I think " I know," or what is contrary to popular "knowledge," I don't just discount it, I am compelled to consider it because of the source.  But, at the same time we tend to repeat what we have been fed over the years by popular writers in the books and magazines.  Those need to be constantly examined if they fly in the face of evidence.

I was going to post some information about oil and lubricants on this thread because it fits with our discussions about lubricants and other things, but I think I will start a new thread so we can discuss it.

Have a great day,
Mako

[JerseyJD]

Another question or two popped into my mind thinking about the 1860 - these related to loading safety. When I was taught how to use my Hawkens rifle by a fellow club member, he instructed to me to use a spit and dry patch both to soften any fouling and deal with potential burning embers. As far as potential burning embers in an 1860, is it overkill to use the same technique if I'm at the range and might load rather quickly from one cylinder to the next? This is in contrast to the cap  and ball shooters I see in CAS matches who load from a measured spout on their flask, rather than a smaller powder measure for safety,  and appear not to bother looking for embers. 

[Mako]

... As far as potential burning embers in an 1860, is it overkill to use the same technique if I'm at the range and might load rather quickly from one cylinder to the next? This is in contrast to the cap  and ball shooters I see in CAS matches who load from a measured spout on their flask, rather than a smaller powder measure for safety,  and appear not to bother looking for embers. 

Two things:

• Small short chambers as compared to deep long rifle barrels, little or no place for an ember to hide.  The embers in a rifle barrel are in the fouling along the length of the rifled barrel, you don't see that kind of debris in the chambers.  You see debris (but I've yet to see an ember) in the barrels of pistols, but then you're not pouring powder into the barrel.
• There is a gap between when you shoot and when you reload, even if you reload shortly after you go to the loading table.

If anyone who tells you this is a problem then they don't shoot in CAS type matches.

~Mako

[JerseyJD]

Two things:

• Small short chambers as compared to deep long rifle barrels, little or no place for an ember to hide.  The embers in a rifle barrel are in the fouling along the length of the rifled barrel, you don't see that kind of debris in the chambers.  You see debris (but I've yet to see an ember) in the barrels of pistols, but then you're not pouring powder into the barrel.
• There is a gap between when you shoot and when you reload, even if you reload shortly after you go to the loading table.

Thank you for the information. I'm so glad I asked rather than trying to guess concerning certain aspects of the dark arts. While I'm at it, and at the risk of using up my welcome,  I'd like to query you folks on the following:

1) For those folks using 1860s in CAS, do you remove the cylinder and load from a commerical stand? Is repeated removal of the  wedge likely to loosen the fit of the wedge?

2) I just began reading about those pards using pyrodex and their cleaning techniques using vinegar - which seems to be required for pyrodex but not for the Holy Black. Windex with vinegar seems to be recommended but is not always available in comparison to  the more ubiquitous Ammonio D variety which the threads seem to discourage. For those using moose milk in its many forms, is the addition to vinegar to the concoction (alcohol, murphy's oil soap, hydrogen peroxide)  a safe and effective procedure?

   I've used 777 in the past in my Hawkens with good results but yearn to try something a bit closer to the real stuff. To be honest, I'm a bit apprehensive of Black Powder and, at this point in my learning curve, lean towards something which is less likely to accidentally ignite.     

[Mako]

Thank you for the information. I'm so glad I asked rather than trying to guess concerning certain aspects of the dark arts. While I'm at it, and at the risk of using up my welcome,  I'd like to query you folks on the following:

1) For those folks using 1860s in CAS, do you remove the cylinder and load from a commerical stand? Is repeated removal of the  wedge likely to loosen the fit of the wedge?

Few remove their cylinders, but I am one of the ones that do.  You don't get significant wedge wear. Three years ago I pulled the wedge from a brand new unfired Uberti 1861 and compared it to the well used wedges from Uberti 1860 pistols made in 2002 and you would be hard pressed to see any appreciable wear other than some light burnishing.  Look at the photos and tell me which one is the old wedge, the one on the left or right in the two photos.  They don't look appreciably different today.

2) I just began reading about those pards using pyrodex and their cleaning techniques using vinegar - which seems to be required for pyrodex but not for the Holy Black. Windex with vinegar seems to be recommended but is not always available in comparison to  the more ubiquitous Ammonio D variety which the threads seem to discourage. For those using moose milk in its many forms, is the addition to vinegar to the concoction (alcohol, murphy's oil soap, hydrogen peroxide)  a safe and effective procedure?

I wouldn't use Vinegar if I were you, there isn't any need and vinegar is an acid and can remove your finish.  People wanting to remove bluing soak their parts in vinegar.  In fact we were just talking about it the other day. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,41006.msg517749.html#msg517749  Vinegar is used to kill some of the caustic salts with corrosive primers which are basically alkalis.  The same is true with Pyrodex which I read produces caustic residues.  Black powder doesn't create these residues.

Many people use nothing but water, I use bar soap with mine to break down any greases or oils that are still there.  You don't need all of the "special" recipes.  The secret is the water, everything else just breaks down the organic oils.  Don't make this any more difficult than it needs to be, it's not Rocket Surgery...

The reason people use Moose Milk is to prevent rust on parts they are cleaning with water.  The Ballistol is not the cleaner, the water is.  The suspension of oil coats the steel and prevent rust while it is drying.  I use it if I am cleaning in hot water and spray the parts down with Moose Milk and set them in the sun to dry.  Then I wipe the steel down with an oily Ballistol rag for storage.  Moose Milk that gets inside of a frame will leave a film as it dries and prevents corrosion.  For people who don't fully disassemble to clean Moose milk definitely makes sense for cleaning the frame, even on the outside.

Contrary to the name of Murphy Oil Soap it does not use oil for a cleaner, the cleaning agents are Sodium Tallate and Lauramidopropylamine oxide , not oil.  The only oil in the mixture is a very minute amount of citronella oil that is only added for the scent.  Don't be fooled into thinking it offers you corrosion protection like Moose Milk does.

I've used 777 in the past in my Hawkens with good results but yearn to try something a bit closer to the real stuff. To be honest, I'm a bit apprehensive of Black Powder and, at this point in my learning curve, lean towards something which is less likely to accidentally ignite.

I also don't understand who has frightened you about using black powder.  I promise you that if you use it you will not spontaneously combust upon firing.  People have used it for centuries and you will find most of the experienced shooters here use it by choice unless they live in an area that makes it difficult to use or prohibits it.  There are some who for one reason or another use a synthetic, but they are in the minority.

777 can actually be more of a problem.  It is more energetic than BP and you stand more of a chance of "overloading" with 777 than you ever could with real BP.

Question all that you have been led to believe about Black Powder shooting to date and in the future.  Even weigh what I tell you with the facts and science.  Don't let opinions, feelings, tradition or anything besides the hard facts and empirically derived data resulting from experience determine what your regimen will be.

Regards,
Mako

[Lefty Dude]

I shoot 1851's and have an 1860 as a back-up. I do not remove the cylinders for reloading. I load with the lever, and use a extension that slips on the loading lever rod. The extension is called a Slick-Stick, makes for easy loading and compression. I use APP a sub-BP and also BP. It depends what is available. I use a Simple Green and water mixture for clean-up, and Ballistol for lube on all surfaces when they are dry. I do not remove the Cones on the cylinder for cleaning each time.

The Remington & Ruger shooter's remove the cylinders for loading because the base pin fouls and must be lubed often. I can run a six stage match with out greasing the Arbor of my 51's. I do however at each loading wipe the face of the cylinders to remove any residue which will make the cylinder to barrel bind-up. I carry a small squirt bottle of the Simple Green mixture for this purpose. I Give a little spirtz on a rag and do the wipe as I rotate the cylinder. This also aid's in the seating of the ball in the chamber.

I like the APP-Sub because I do not need any lube, wad or card for the loading under or over the ball. I just dump the measured powder in the chamber and seat the ball. The APP makes it's own lube. This Works for me.

For my Rifle rounds,44-40 I use BP and BP in my shotgun also.

[Mako]

Jersey,
Actually I load all of my Colts on a bench loader.  I break mine down between every stage, clean the tubes, check for debris especially around the hammer slot and wipe them down.  Before I got my first bench loader I used to charge powder, add a  lubed wad and then reassemble the pistol to seat balls then I'd pull the barrel again to clean the lead rings and had to reassemble it a second time.  Too much work!  I can load my revolvers as fast as someone  loading them using the barrel mounted rammer, check them, clean them and keep my pistols running trouble free an entire match.  Almost every other stage I find cap fragments somewhere when I pull the barrel and cylinder.

If you look at any pair of my 1860 (I have 3 pairs of match guns) revolvers they almost look new (but the newest pair is five years old) because I don't put a lot of wear and tear on them using the barrel mounted system.  If you pay attention you will notice the stress you actually put on the pistol while ramming a ball home.  I shoot trouble free matches gunfighter style, I can't afford to have a sticky action or dirty pistol with both hands full.

I do all of this while manning the safety officer position at the unloading table.  No one has or ever will ever accuse me of not pulling my weight on a posse.  I start out as a spotter, take my turn shooting about half of the way through then finish out the stage as a safety officer at the unloading table.  The loader helps me be able to do this because you can see exactly what you are doing and stop at any point to do your duty as  the unloading table officer.  I notice a lot of Cap-N-Ball shooters go off on their own to recharge because they don't want to be distracted, this isn't a problem with the cylinder off, you can stop, re-inspect and start back up at any point.  I have it all kitted up and stick to a a choreographed routine.

This is my loader:




and this is my match routine:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36006.msg461584.html#msg461584

You can load on the pistol, that is what they were designed to do.  But then most revolvers in the 19th century were loaded and shot six times and then a separate pistol drawn if it were available.  They didn't shoot 30 or 40 rounds through each one in a couple of hours.  Modern competition several times a month plus any practice puts the wear of years or in some case decades of use in the 19th century on our pistols in a years time.

Regards,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy again, Jersey JD!

You're getting a lot of good info here - I hope you remember all the ideas well.  Not just mine, of course, but Mako makes things easy to understand, as do others.

My 1860 Army Colt (by Uberti and marked/imported by Iver Johnson) is approaching 40 years old (made in'73) after I bought it in 1975.  The wedge is still VERY tight and has required zero modification.  It is smoother and easier to remove than when it was brand new, but that's because the whole gun is "worked in" and smoother now.  It has thousands of rounds 'thru it and has more life left in it than I have left to shoot it!  I'm soon to be using my second set of replacement nipples (the originals, then a good set of Stainless Steel nips from Uncle Mikes, and will soon have a new set of Treso nips whenever I can get the guy at The House of Muskets  to answer his phone!

I have, on the other side of the coin, replaced numerous bolt/trigger flat springs, and several hand springs and/or assemblies.  Goes with the territory.

I have used a LOT of Pyrodex and a lot more Goex 3F Black Powder; and a little KiK & Elephant BP.  Never had ANY of the sub powders.  Around here, Indianapolis real BP is relatively easy to get (outside of the actual county line) as well as Pyro at places like Wally World.  If I want Trip 7 or any of the other true subs, I have to pay around double  the price of Goex.  Just recently, I discovered a place that also sells Schuetzen & Swiss powder.  The durn Swiss is also about double the price of Goex, but the Schuetzen is only a couple bucks more than the Goex, so I'll give that a try since it comes SOOOOOO highly recommended.  I did score 3 pounds of Triple 7 at Wal Mart when I found them  a couple years ago, unmarked on a "closeout" shelf after the hunting season was over.  I asked the guy "How much?" and he said he didn't know, but he guessed around $10.  So, now I have 3 lbs. of 777, but have never used any, yet.  As an addendum to that story, I was back in the same WM a couple weeks later and another sales associate - the regular - was there and I asked if they still had any of that "out of season" 777.  He said "yep" and I asked "how much?"  He said "Well it's on sale ... for $21.95, but regular price was $23.95!  And NO - he wouldn't sell me any more @ $10 each!


I don't have one of those nifty table loaders and load ALL my C&B cylinders on the gun.  NEVER any issues with embers.  It's my understanding that the embers result primarily (but not ALWAYS) from the paper remnants of paper "cartridges" as used back "then" and sometimes now.  And MOSTLY with rifles.  I always peek into each chamber before I begin to reload.  Works for me!

About Ballistol:  Good stuff.  I make my MooseMilk at a ratio of 7 or 8 to one.  (7 or 8 parts water to 1 part Ballistol)  I also use a great commercial product; Hoppes #9 Plus BP Cleaner & Patch Lube  (NOT regular Hoppes #9!).  It smells better (IMHO) than Ballistol and works the same - it's a water-based solution, too I believe, but it uses something other than mineral oil.  However ... I do not use OR recommend Ballistol for primary lubrication & preservative.  It's simply too thin.  It works in a pinch, but as a lube it may not be any better than WD40, and we all know about that.  (Don't get me wrong - WD is a great Water Displacement formula and light lube, as is Ballistol - there are just better lubricants that can be used.  On the Quick, it works ... barely, but not for the Long Haul.)  I use Break Free, or Eezox, or TW 25, or Gun Butter, or Lucas Gun Oil, or my own formula of a mix of Lucas Gun Oil mixed with Teflon in suspension like in BreakFree/Tri-Flo/Rem Oil ... ALL of which are proper lubricants and will preserve the metal.  I just make sure not to use the Petroleum-based lubes where they contact fully with BP residue, and therefore don't have any problems.  Heck, the Oil + BP issues are way overblown - in MY opinion - but your mileage may vary.  I stress my use of the word Lubrication, because the oil in Ballistol DOES work as it's supposed to; to protect metal from rusting while the water gets a chance to neutralize and clean the residue salts after firing BP.  If someone uses Ballistol on their firearms for lube & preservative and regularly fires & cleans their guns, the Bal. will most likely do fine for preservation.  But not for years like BreakFree did for me when I had guns in storage for 8 years when I was stationed overseas in Uncle Sugar's Traveling Roadshow & Peacekeeping troops.

Above all, have fun, and ...

Keep yer powder dry!

And have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

[JerseyJD]

WOW!! You guys are just great with your detailed responses, and in some cases, detailed pictures. Thanks much. Now I just can't wait to get my holiday gift which, according to Cabelas web site, is still a week or two away from receipt on their end. The Remingtons, which are $90 off, are now backordered more than 6 weeks. Birthday  coming up in January, considering ordering a  matching 1860 during the current sale and some holsters. 

If I decide to try the Holy Black, rather than the subs, I'll likely be able to get a pound or two from some of my fellow shooters who have offered. How about storage if I get a 5 pound order over the internet and pay hazmat? Is a black powder magazine, like the one sold at Maine Powder House worthwhile or should I just dig a hole in the backyard, get a water proof box of some type and only keep a pound in the garage? I'm busy reading the numerous threads on BP and static so I can take steps to maximize safety such as minimizing exposure to plastics.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Jersey,

We are a long-winded bunch!  (speaking mainly for myself.)

A storage chest will do fine, but isn't needed.  BP actually needs a safe storage where the top/and-or sides is/are NOT tight, except for moisture.  I store my BP in a surplus 20MM machine-cannon box, but I don't fasten the lid.  That way, the pressure would blow straight up and not create a BOMB, which it could if tightened.  SAAMI has specs for a wooden storage bin they recommend, if I remember.  And, you would be well to inform any firefighters (IF, God forbid you have a fire) where the powder is located.  They MIGHT simply let things burn, or they could concentrate their hoses around the storage area while other fire-eaters do the rest of the house.  But that is NOT gonna happen!

No need to dig a hole and put it in waterproof casing - which would then possibly become a bomb, but at least the explosion would go primarily upward.  (Explosions go to the path of least resistance, which is how some NAZI SS soldiers would "prove their "manhood" by putting on their Stahlheim, literally = Steel Home ... or helmet and prop a grenade on top and pull the pin - and letting it explode - or so I've heard.)  (I guess I wouldn't have been a good NAZI ... or SS, either!   )

Just keep your BP or ANY other powder, in a cool, dry place.  Ideally, 70 deg. F and dry.  Powder deteriorates as it gets hot in storage and in different percentages depending on the type.  70 is perfect, so most any household temp is suitable.

Most BP comes in metal cans, but not ALL, and most smokeyless powder does come in plastic.  It's a special non-static type, 'tho, so not just any old plastic Tupperware or such works.  Keep it in the metal can wherever you store it, whether a metal, wood or plastic storage bin.  (Like the big Roughstuff Bins made for storage.)  Any BP in its' original metal (or the old paper) container will do fine.

[pony express]

When shooting my 1860's, I load with cyclinders in the gun, with the loading lever. I just use an unoccupied loading table, or do it while manning the unloading table. One of my pards,(Fingers Mcgee) has a loading stand built onto his gun cart for this purpose. I haven't shot with anyone that removes the cyclinder to load. When I was just starting, I was concerned about reloading, so I bought extra cyclinders, but soon abandoned that idea, just lead to more cleaning at the end of the day.