*** UPDATE!! *** Original Spencer Carbine Stock with Inscribed Lettering

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

Recently, I came into possession of an original Spencer Carbine stock.  Kind of beat up with many dings and bruises, but in better shape overall than the stock on my recently worked on original Spencer from a previous thread.

This particular stock has a line of printing inscribed on the bottom forward edge of the stock.  I would like your thoughts on what you think it says  

                                            (full Stock Photo #1)


                                            (Full Stock Photo #2)


Stock lettering appears below in 4 different photos









Thanks for your ideas

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Just a gess,I 4/5 US 26 ITU

[PvtGreg]

Two Flints,

I'm certain its Greek - what it says I have no definitive idea, but after seeing civil war stocks that have been carved on I think its someone's name or the name of the gun (BIG guess).



I see 8 letters - from left to right:  Iota, Lamda (I think), upsilon (I think), Omega, Zeta (I think), Sigma, Pi, Mu

Any other thoughts?

[DJ]

I believe it is Thai (in the 1800's it would've been called "Siamese"), and a mixture of letters and numerals.  Your photo shows them upside down.

DJ,

Then, this is the photo right side up Two Flints

[DJ]

From the left, I believe the first character is some form of the sound "K" (Thai is basically phonetic), the second character an "N," and the third through sixth characters appear to be the numerals, "1 5 3 9"  I am not sure what the vertical strike at the right is.

I'm no Thai linguist, but as a child in Thailand I used to take the Number 1 and Number 3 buses, and those as well as the rest of the characters looked familiar.

As you probably know, Thailand acquired both Sharps and Spencer firearms in the immediate post-Civil War period.  As a buffer between Burma (a British colony) on the west, and French Indo-China on the east, the Thais undoubtedly faced pressures.

[PvtGreg]

I think DJ wins! 

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I received the following information from the person I bought the stock from:

Two Flints/Fred,

I bought the stock from a friend of mine who had bought it many years ago to restore a rifle he had. When he showed it to me he had no idea what the lettering was. I believe it is Sanskrit or Hindu. I'm afraid that's all i know, and that is very little,

Sorry,Dave

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I sent photos of my old Spencer stock to a contact friend of mine at Harvard University and he sent them to various language scholars, who in turn sent it to others for a look see.

This was the final response I received:

I did take a look to the attachments but this script is not any of the three languages that I know. This is not Bengali, Hindi or Sanskrit. This could be one of the old Indian script called Brahmi or Kharoshthi which I studied long long time ago when I was a student of Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archaeology. But I don't remember anything of that language at this point. I am sorry that I could not be of much help to you.

I don't know who else can I forward this. I hope you can find someone who can solve the mystery. In the meantime I will ask other scholars about this and if I find an answer I will let you know.

Best wishes,

Two Flints

[Jobe Holiday]

A tantalizing piece of history! The fact that no one has been able to translate it doesn't surprise me. I went through a similar experience many years ago. I had come into possession of a Model 1816 musket stock that was beautifully carved. It had very detailed chip carving from the butt stock up to the lower barrel band. One side of the butt stock had a very carefully carved passage in Arabic. All of the carving on the stock was of a very professional nature and matched the age of the stock. I took it to a very well educated friend from Yemen to have it translated. He told me that the language it was carved in was an archaic Arabic dialect and unable to be translated. I told him I found that hard to believe! He said "You have no idea how many obscure Arabic dialects there were at the time this carving was done!"

Jobe

[minerotago]

Fascinating but tantalising - I like answers so please someone come up with the answer to the puzzle. It was only after someone had suggested Thai or similar that I did indeed agree that maybe he was right...Good luck Two Flints I hope you solve the puzzle

[DJ]

If you'll go on a couple of the gun auction sites, search for Siamese Mausers, and look for listings with closeup photos of serial numbers, you'll find several that use some of the same numerals.  Or you could take a copy of your closup photo to a Thai restaurant next time you go--someone in the kitchen or among the waitstaff should be able to confirm it for you.

--DJ 

[Sgt. Norm]

Sgt Norm is our first SSS posse member from Thailand

Dear Friends,

It is absolutely Thai lettering.
The commercial/private gun registration system here is that the first 2 letter = province/town name in short.
The following are Thai numeric.

In this case The first 2 letter is Kor Bor = Karnjana Buri Province.
It is the province the Bridge over River Kwai located.

The number are 1539.
I could not identify which year it was registered but it is the only 1539th
firearm registered in that province. Could be pre WW2.....

Moreover, the truth is this Spencer supposed to be in Military storage and later be destroyed.

Same as my Spencer, it was used at remote unit and some were later transferred to police force/guard local prison (around 1890). Many strayed into private hand when owners may chose to register it in their name (The gun is too old that the local officers, unfamiliar to historical piece, book it as shotgun or cap lock muzzle loader).

My Spencer came without stock at all and it took me years to get the magazine tube and
refit. There is another one recovered from the river(in the mud bed) but came out
surprisingly in good condition. There will be more to be found I believe.

Thanks for accepting me to the club.

Sgt. Norm

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Welcome, Sgt. norm!  And thanks!

[Trailrider]

Q. What years was the king of Siam fictionally portrayed in "The King and I" ("Anna and the King of Siam") supposed to have taken place?  Have to wonder if the palace guard or part of his army might have used this Spencer carbine.

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I pulled these comments from another web site dealing with Spencers overseas -

After my wife and I got married she went back to Thailand to continue teaching at Chulalongkorn University. The next summer I had some $ so I flew over to honeymoon a little. My inlaws graciously vacated the master bedroom so we could have our fun. One evening we were in bed talking and Salisa said "there are some long guns under the bed."

Didn't take me very long to check it out. Two muzzle-loaders and a Spencer infantry rifle. All in good working order, but no ammo in the house.

Salisa's grandfather had been an instructor (French, music and math) at the Naval Academy. When the Army deposed King Prajadhipok in 1932, some loyal troops and a lot of the Navy staged a counter-revolution and marched on the capital with whatever weapons they could find. The Colonels who had taken over had light armor, artillery and a few planes. There was a huge fight on the plain where Don Meuang Airport is now, and the royalists got creamed. The survivors ran for it. grandpa ran as far as Saigon, where his French came in pretty handy. He was able to come back after the war with the return of the King and the (temporary) eclipse of the Colonels, who had gotten awfully cozy with the japanese.

He was long gone, so I never got the story on the Spencer. Did he carry it in thaT fight? Or, more likely, did he pick it up somehow, leave it in BKK during his absence, and recover it later? I know by 1932 the Army at least was all-Mauser.

When he died they had a traditional funeral. The King sent someone from the palace with fire to light the wood under him. They never forget a friend.

Comments by the same person on yet another web site:

I lived in Bangkok a couple years, used to go by the gun shops in "old town" once in a while. They were selling original arsenal ammo but it wasn't any $200 per round. Thailand is one of the more gun-friendly countries in Asia, and the Siamese/Thai government has always gone after the best when it came to weapons.

First time I was in-country, my in-laws gave us the big bed in the big house. One night my new wife told me there were long guns under the bed. So we broke off what we were doing and looked. 2 muzzle-loaders and a Spencer infantry rifle that her grandfather had carried during the war between the royalists and the 1932 military government.

Two Flints

[5judge]

"Ann and the King of Siam" (which became the musical play and movie "The King and I"), was supposed to take place during the American Civil War. You'll recall the (fictional) incident of the king's household members staging "Uncle Tom's Cabin" and the real circumstance of the king offering Abraham Lincoln the gift of two elefants; two so that useful beast could propagate in America. In any event, too early for Spencer usage out there.

[minerotago]

Amazing and I for one am really pleased that someone has managed to come up with the answer - I think it is a great piece of history and would be happy to have the stock alone for the story it tells.

[alke]

I have a Spencer inscribed with Thai as well. It belonged to my ex wife's great grandfather who was issued the rifle when he was in the Military. When he got out he got to keep the rifle. He had the paperwork to transfer it into his name but he never followed through with it. I attempted to do it, but since it had been so long since the paperwork was issued, someone else had paid under that table to use his registration number on another gun and we could not register it. This was even when I presented the rifle to the local police station where we needed to take care of the transfer. Needless to say, I got it back to the states without any paperwork. I won't say how.

The rifle is probably in useable condition but has a split stock from my ex father-in-law swinging it at his brother. I figured I better get a hold of it to protect the gun.

[Two Flints]

Hi alke,

Thanks for the post . . . photos would be great to see of your Spencer and especially the lettering.  You can Email them to me and I will post them for you.  My Email address is fsgrand2@fairpoint.net.  If you do, please use good lighting (outdoors) and take nice sharp photos.

Two Flints

[celem]

I have a Spencer with somewhat similar lettering on the bottom of the buttstock. I have attached a photo. Does this also look like Thai writing?

Sgt Norm is our first SSS posse member from Thailand
...

It is absolutely Thai lettering.
...