Original 1860 Brass frame Army "well kinda"

Major 2 · November 29, 2011, 06:01:06 PM

Well, this is COOL

Just when you say "Never"... $:-\$

Rare Prototype Colt Model 1860 Army Percussion Revolver with Mershon & Hollingsworth Cocking Device

Serial no. 3803, .44 caliber. Standard cylinder and 7 1/2-inch barrel with New York markings. Custom brass frame with case-hardened hammer and oil-finished walnut grips. Right side of frame with circular German silver fitting inscribed: Mershon & Hollingsworth/Sept. 8th 1863. Left side of frame fitted with wheel-shaped steel panel cocking device with folding rim. Evidently designed to create a self-cocking revolver similar to the later British Fosbery revolver. Rear of frame with fire-blued lever engaging the hammer and evidently serving as a safety. Elongated hammer.

Condition: Fine. Barrel retains 90% plus blue finish mixed with brown patina. Cylinder retaining much blue finish.

Estimate: $25000 - $35000

Major 2 · November 29, 2011, 06:02:59 PM

some more

Mako · November 29, 2011, 06:17:36 PM

Major,
No offense intended but your title may be "misleading" to the uninformed reading this thread. That is not a Colt's revolver. That is a Mershon & Hollingsworth experimental device using a Colt's Barrel assembly, Cylinder and some other components.

You won't see the Serial number 3803 anywhere other than on the barrel Lug and possibly some of the Colt's components.

This example has been around for some time.

There are NO Colt's Brass, Bronze, Gun Metal or any other copper alloy 1860 frames that have ever shown up, been written about or alluded to in any fashion other than mislabeled guns as this that have shown up at auctions.

http://collectorebooks.com/gregg01/coltrevolver/Lot-416.htm

Regards,
Mako

Major 2 · November 30, 2011, 07:11:19 AM

That's true and no offense taken....

I'm fine with retitling the post

Still KOOL though

Mako · November 30, 2011, 10:23:25 AM

Quote from: Major 2 on November 30, 2011, 07:11:19 AM
That's true and no offense taken....

I'm fine with retitling the post

Still KOOL though

It's very KOOOOL Major. We sometimes sit here in the 21st century and forget just how imaginative and creative people have always been. We aren't really any more intelligent, in fact sometimes I think what I read in the news proves the opposite. That is especially true with the politicians that would presume to lead us...

What we often forget is that many things we consider more modern were actually contemporaries to things we consider the de rigueur for the "cowboy" period of 1840 to 1899. We forget there were many, many double action revolvers during that period. In fact the most common mechanism for a Pepper Box was a finger cocking action, we commonly use the incorrect term "double action only" when we describe a modern revolver or semi-auto pistol today. The Bolt Action rifle was invented in 1824, the first breech loading rifles actually date back to the Ferguson Rifle in 1776. By 1879 Sharps had produced the first prototypes of the M1885 Remington-Lee Bolt action, magazine fed rifle. Many Europeans armies adopted bolt guns in the 1880s. If they had had better steel beginning in the 1830s then the firearms of the second half of the 19th century would have been very different. Many designs were well ahead of the strength of the materials and the propellants of the day.

On the other hand we forget how long many types of firearms remained in use in the American West. Percussion revolvers, muzzle loading rifles and shotguns remained in use through the 19th century. Very few working cowboys or homesteaders could afford a Colt's SAA, if they got anything it was a Winchester '66 or '73. As cartridge Double Guns became cheaper and the market was flooded with cheap European imports, these along with American double guns often became the gun of the house.

Did you realize that Spencer (designer of the rifle by that name) introduced a pump "hammerless" shotgun in 1882? This is an '84 model:

You've probably never heard of them, they were not common and there is little or no provenance for them being used in what we commonly call the "Old West" unless it was by some dandified hunter traveling from the East. I have heard some arguments that there are examples that were probably used in the Mid-West in the 1890s. Even the Win. '93s weren't common, it wasn't until the '97 came about that the Pump became a well distributed design.

I particularly like the stance NCOWS has taken against the pump shotguns. If we were to open the sports up to every weapon design there was before 1899 then we would devolve into a mish mash of "Wild Bunch" type of clubs, with a few moss backs like us still shooting percussion revolvers.

Regards,
Mako

Major 2 · November 30, 2011, 12:26:23 PM

I sold a Bannerman "Spencer Pump" about 13-14 years ago
It was made in 1899 same gun less the dolling up on your's
It was during the Reenacting craze for the centenial of the Span/Am War...

as an aside Bannerman had bought The design when Spencer went Bankrup.
He tried to sue Winchester for patent infringements on the 93-97 he lost !

Mako · November 30, 2011, 06:29:16 PM

Quote from: Major 2 on November 30, 2011, 12:26:23 PM
I sold a Bannerman "Spencer Pump" about 13-14 years ago
It was made in 1899 same gun less the dolling up on your's
It was during the Reenacting craze for the centenial of the Span/Am War...

as an aside Bannerman had bought The design when Spencer went Bankrup.
He tried to sue Winchester for patent infringements on the 93-97 he lost !

SMALL WORLD...

If yours was made in '99 it was probably an 1896 model Bannerman. They had a lot of improvements along the way, the later models had longer fore ends than the one pictured above. That one above is an '84 which had just some manufacturing differences from the '82. Then there were the '86, '92 and the '90 models. I believe the 1896 model was the first Bannerman change after Spencer was bought out in 1890.

Regards,
Mako

StrawHat · December 01, 2011, 06:28:41 AM

Did not Spencer also make a folding shotgun? I remember something about a slaesman talking to the Sfaety Diector of the City of New York and pulling one from under his coat. Apparently T.R. was curious enough to consider them for the PD.

Stophel · December 03, 2011, 11:44:04 AM

Wow, it looks so.... handy. I wonder why it didn't catch on?

Stophel · December 03, 2011, 12:09:03 PM

Quote from: Mako on November 30, 2011, 10:23:25 AM, the first breech loading rifles actually date back to the Ferguson Rifle in 1776.
Mako

Breech loading rifles go WAY back before Ferguson was born. In fact, the Ferguson rifle is not the least bit original to him. Screw breech guns like his were built here and there for probably 50 years or more before Ferguson's guns were produced.

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=3103213

And don't forget, Swiss gunsmith Jean Samuel Pauly had invented fully self contained metallic cartridges and guns by at least 1812 (and the cartridges are very much conventional in form, if only they had an enclosed priming compound).