.357 MAGNUM BP loads

[Lewie Girardeau]

     HIYA Everyone,

          OK, I now have enough guns to start with CASS and they are the same caliber!!
     So what I would like to know is, is the FILL THE CASE WITH POWDER ( BP Ofcourse) then lightly compress apply to the .357 still the norm ??
      BUT.... Would that bust the speed limit on cass ??
      ALSO... Are CCI the best or hottest primer that would work for CASS loads? BTW, cartridge loading with bp is new to me, how does GOEX work in shells? I ask that as that is the only ( bp ) powder I have EVER used....
      Sould I go with 2f or 3f grade or use a different brand all together? I'm in KY and have not bought BP here YET so any information will be "GREATLY APPRECIATED"     

        Kentuckians HINT HINT.....

                                                    Lewie

[Mako]

Lewie,
You can get about 21.5 to 22.0 grains of Goex FFFg in a case under a Snakebite Grease Wagon.  You're gonna get 900 to 950 fps out of a revolver with a 5 1/2 to 7 1/2" barrel.  That keeps you under the thresh hold.  I know it doesn't exceed the rifle velocities as well but I can't remember the velocities you get with a 20 inch barrel.

We loaded some up for a friend who was shooting both a 5 1/2" and 7 1/2" Vaquero and a 20" '92.  He wanted to try BP out.  Now he shoots the same bullet in a .38 spl case in a '73.  It has to be choked up on and crimped on the ogive for a '73 in a .357 case, because the SBGW is so long and mimics the overall length of a .357 when loaded in a .38 spl case, so he switched to .38 spl cases.  He now shoots a pair of Richards Mason revolvers in .45 Schofield I believe.  But, the .357 worked fine, it was a bit finicky and really too long in the '92, but it sort of worked.

If you want more velocity switch to Swiss or KIK powders.  If you use "gut rot" Skirmish or Diamond Back like me I would expect about 950 max.  Shoot FFFg to get a good case seal and limit any gas blow by.

~Mako

P.S. One last thing, even though the Uberti '66s are chambered in .38spl the carrier is the same length as the '73s which are .357 Mag.  The SBGW in a .38 spl case is the best feeding combo there is for a Uberti '66 in .38 spl.

[Lewie Girardeau]

    Thanks Mako,

         I went and got my old bounty hunter from the pawn crook that I left it with when I deployed and bought a second one and a Rossi 92. BUT.. they are all .357 so if I can work up a load that don't break te speed limit and just stay with 357 I think I will be good..
   So.... Gun wise I am ready for sketty western shooting, cause moma put a limit on my spending, but as far as guns go I'm good .....  Now I have to work on my outfirts... speaking of which I will have to make a different post on that...
        Thanks again MAKO, I really hope to meet you someday, you give good advice for the new guy!!!!

                                                        Lewie


                             

[Abilene]

Lewie, my .357 rifle load (for a '73) is a 147gr Black Dawge bullet. OAL is 1.55".  Because this bullet seats deeper than the 125gr bullets I use for .38 pistol rounds, I actually use the same 18-19gr FFFg Goex charge for both .38 and .357.  So this will have less velocity than Mako's load.  As you mentioned, just figure out how much powder to use based on how deep your bullet of choice seats in the brass.  Any primer works fine with BP.

[wildman1]

Cas shootin, fill a 38 spl case with powder (use it as a measure) dump it in the 357 case seat the bullet, crimp yer good ta go. WM

[hellgate]

Louie,

I would have been content with the Snakebite bullet but for whatever reason I did not get reliable functioning (feeding) in my two Rossi '92s. I got some hiccups (jams, stovepipes) so I had to give up on real gunpowder much to my chagrin. I SOOOO wanted to keep with real BP but couldn't risk jams during rapid fire. YMMV. Using other bullets I had a load that would shoot all day without fouling the barrel but it was not accurate enough (5-6" groups at 50yds from a bench) the other load I had would shoot very accurately (1.5" groups at 50yds) but required a "pull through" of a wet swab between CAS stages. I got tired of getting permanent black stains on my shirt sleeves when the swab popped through the muzzle.

I went to using FFFg 777 (a no-no, ..... 'sposed to use FFg 777 but I worked up the load before reading the bottle). It shoots 1.5-2.0" groups @ 50yds. Here's the comparison using my otic chronograph at 50 yds: BP, APP, Black Canyon, Black Mag3, etc:... POW......... Ding! Here's the 777 otic chronograph: POW.....Ding! Note the higher speed with the 777?

I shoot 158gr bullets of any shape but the '92s are particular as to the OAL so be sure to establish the best OAL for reliable feeding before loading up a ton of ammo. RN bullets like a different OAL than SWCs or RNFP. Before I bother to determine the powder charge I estableish the best OAL for feeding by loading 5 dummie cartridges (no primer or powder) and start out with an extra long OAL of, let's say 1.65". I then load the mag and rapidly rack the rounds through the gun. I record the OAL and performance of the 5 rounds (smooth, rough, jams every round, jammed 1 round, etc.) then I reseat the bulets a bit deeper, say to 1.63 and repeat (WRITING DOWN the findings as you WILL forget the numbers!) and repeat at 1.61, 1.58, 1.55 etc. until the bullet is seated deep enough that it looks wrong or you see they start jamming again. Each shape of bullet nose has its "sweet spot" and that is what you set your bullet seater at for that bullet style. Record the OAL and keep it on a scrap of paper in the box of bullets so you can adjust the seater die for each bullet. THEN you can fiddle with the best powder charge.

Somewhere around 21-22 grs volume BP seemed to me to be a good load for the .357. I use 15grs (weighed) of the 777 and it is accurate and more powerful than BP or any of the other subs. The 777 smokes a little more than BP but does not give that nice, loud BOOM! you get with real gunpowder. Also the 38SPL case is thinner walled and may seal the chamber a bit better than a .357 to prevent blowback of fouling into the action of the gun.

In sum, my recommendation (after shooting BP class in CAS since 1993) is go with the Snakebite bullet and a good BP lube (6 cavity gang molds available from Biglube.com or buy a sample pack) if at all possible. If that doesn't work for you then 777 is a nice sub that is available most anywhere other propellents are sold. I use nickled brass as I think it extracts a little better with fouling than brass but that is mere opinion.  Nickeled brass does not tarnish like brass brass and is more resistant to the corrosive effects of the various subs like APP & 777 to the cases. There's my 2 cents FWIW

[wildman1]

Oh yeah forgot I use 125 g RNFP for my wifes Rossi 92, as long as she shoots it like she means it it gives no problems. WM

[w44wcf]

Lewie,
I use 21.5 grs of 3F powder which is the same charge weight and powder type I found in some early .38 Special black powder factory cartridges.  It also works fine in .357 Magnum  brass.

Here are velocities I recorded using 158 gr bullets and SPG lube.....
21.5 grs by weight

7 1/2" barrel -
Swiss 3F - 967 f.p.s.

24" barrel -
Schuetzen 3F - 1,164 f.p.s.
Goex 3F .......-  1,208 f.p.s.
Swiss 3F .......- 1,255 f.p.s.
KIK 3F ......... - to be tested in the next week or so

777FFG - 15 grs by weight - 1,134 f.p.s.

w44wcf

[Jefro]

Howdy Lewie, loading is easy, put in enough powder so that when you seat the bullet it compresses the powder about 1/16" to 1/8". I prefer Schuetzen 3F, it cost the same as Goex and burns cleaner. I would suggest loading up a few 38sp and .357 first then give them a try, most of the folks use the 38sp. I use about 1.2CC in the 38sp. I've heard one shooter complain the 357 can cause a sonic crack in some rifles about the same time the spotters are expecting to hear a clang. Another thing is the 158gr Snakebite loaded in a 357 is to long to feed in some rifles, would not work in my 73 even after crimping way past the crimp groove. I think Slim now has a shorter 140gr that will work in 357. The 38sp is also gonna be less recoil in the revolvers. If you have plenty of 38sp cases it's sumpin to think about. Good Luck  

DJ's Photos of Powder Compression


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Mako]

...Another thing is the 158gr Snakebite loaded in a 357 is to long to feed in some rifles, would not work in my 73 even after crimping way past the crimp groove. I think Slim now has a shorter 140gr that will work in 357. The 38sp is also gonna be less recoil in the revolvers. If you have plenty of 38sp cases it's sumpin to think about. Good Luck  

DJ's Photos of Powder Compression

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

Jefro,
Good points, since Lewie is shooting a '92 I didn't foolow up or stress that the.357 with a SBGW was too long for a '73.  The carrier for a '73 (or a '66) is 1.60" long and the opening it rides in is 1.62" long, the SAAMI max COAL for .357 mag is 1.59".  A SBGW in a .38 spl case is 1.53" long which is why it works so well in '66s and '73s. 

As Hellgate reported the ogive shape and COAL of a cartridge is more finicky in a '92, whether it be a Rossi or one of the other reproductions.  A Marlin is more forgiving and will take what at first appear to be too long.  When we were trying my buddy's '92 we could manipulate a .357 cartridge into the chamber, as I alluded to in my previous post "that it sort of worked."  You had to lever it slowly and tip the shell up by pulling on the rim with your finger in the action.  Since we had the loads we just wanted to see what the velocity was, I do know it was way under the SASS 1,400 fps.

As I said he started loading the SBGW in .38 cases for his '92 and as far as I know he still uses them.  Over the years I have read reports from people including Steve (Nate Kiowa Jones) over on the SASS Wire where he recommends COAL no longer than 1.57" for .357 mag in the Rossi '92.  I'm pretty sure my friend still uses SBGWs, but I have read of others resorting to using different bullets for feeding reliability.

~Mako

[hellgate]

Speaking of OALs, my Rossis like 1.61" OALs for the round nose bullets. SWCs like 1.56" long ammo. I didn't realize 1.61 is over SASSMI specs. Oh well, it works for me.

[Mako]

Speaking of OALs, my Rossis like 1.61" OALs for the round nose bullets. SWCs like 1.56" long ammo. I didn't realize 1.61 is over SASSMI specs. Oh well, it works for me.

Yep, you're a "wildman", a rebel...



But this is the perfect illustration for Lewie or any other new shooter, he needs to learn with our sport and with BP you have to find what works...There is no "rote" process in many cases.  As several of us have told him you have to find what cycles reliably in his carbine and then work out his load from there.  The big advantage to Black Powder is that he only has to determine the volume of BP it takes to fill the case and give him 1/16th to 1/8th inch compression after he has a bullet and COAL that works for him.

Have great Thanksgiving,
Mako

[Springfield Slim]

38 Bullets can vary quite a bit in length. Here are 4 examples, from left to right: 158 gr Snakebite, 140 gr BP, 110 gr 38Slim, 125 gr LEE RNFP. I have a friend who has a Rossi 92 and a Marlin,both in 357. It has been heck trying to get a load that works well in both. It doesn't help that he tends to short stroke the lever. His girlfriend doesn't have any problem as she racks the lever like she means it. I wish he would either get another Marlin or another 92!

[Mako]

Slim,
That 140gr BP bullet looks perfect for a .357 load.  What is the COAL with that bullet crimped in the groove?

I hear you on the Marlin, my girls have '94 Marlins and I never even think about what we are feeding them.  I'm spoiled with '73s , '66s and the Marlins eating anything that will fit on the carriers.  When I read all of the machinations that '92 shooters have to go through and how Kiowa Nate Jones learned about them (basically figuring out how to make them work at all) I realize how simple life is for those of us who shoot something as trouble free as Percussion revolvers...

Regards,
Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

.357 Magnum brass loaded with the Big Lube®LLC Snakebite 158 grain bullet crimped in the crimp grove yields a cartridge that is longer than SAAMI specs.  They will NOT run in my Browning 92.  This bullet was designed to yield .357 Mag OAL cartridges with cheap 38 Special brass.  This it does very well.  Say thanks to Snakebite.

BUT, when loaded in that same .357 Magnum brass and crimped on the ogive, the cartridges run great.  Simply crimp forward of the crimp grove and you will have SAAMI spec OAL .357 Magnum that runs like a champ.  In fact, because the crimp is adjustable, you can load ammo that will be an exact fit for your gun(s).

DD-DLoS

[Mako]

Dick,
That's what we do with the SBGW and advised above.  I was just curious what the COAL of the bullet Mark showed was in a .357.  He can give us .38 spl as well, I can extrapolate.

~Mako

[Lewie Girardeau]

     HIYA...


            I'm thinkin about trying that 140 grn slug.. as soon as I get my reloader

                                       Lewie

[Springfield Slim]

The 140 grain bullet is approx. 280 thousandths from the crimp groove to the front end of the bullet. I don't do 38's, so I don't have any loaded rounds to measure.