reloading 45/70 with Lee, an equipment question

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks All,

I found some brass which I'll buy from a pard.  I pretty much know what I need to order for dies etc.  Still not sure if I should order the TOTW wads at .460 dia, would like to so I don;t encounter shipping somewhere else.  Any comments on the diameter of the card wads they offer?

Made the drop tube this afternoon.

Waiting for slim to get back to me on the Postell boolits.  Anyone know where I can buy a small quantity in the mean time?  

-Willy

I retire at the end of December and it looks like the contract for my consulting job wont be in place for about a month so I may have the month of January off and if I do I wanna try to do some shootin.

[john boy]

Replies - I got replies 
Mako, for the compression I have both the BACO and the Lee 446.  Reason, I shoot many different types of 45-70's, sometimes using the cases that need to be resized back down using the full length resizing die to just squeeze the neck.  Then the expander plug and either of the compression dies. 

Willy:
* Your good to go with the 0.460 wads.  I just mic'ed  the '460' ones I have.  They are loose in the caliper.  Tighten the caliper a small tad, they are 0.455.  OK, how do you seat the wads?  Use a pencil.   Do not seat the wad with the compression plug
* A fast order for the Postell's is from Buffalo Arms.  Also order some Creedmoor bullets.  Both of these are proven bullets
http://www.buffaloarms.com/411_459_diameter_cast_bullets_pr-4135.aspx?CAT=4135

*  Save your money buying Mike's book.  I gave you all the detail steps on how to reload a BPCR bullet on the SASS Wire ... we have discussed several of the steps here on CasCity.  Here's one of the best free reads there is for reloading BPCR rounds ...
http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf
*  And be sure to do the A-B-C-D formula that I gave you in the post on the SASS Wire to determine your COAL because it will also dictate how much you'll compress the powder column with the plug.  Ya got to fiddle to get the proper height which dictates the compression plug setting.  Sooooooo, be sure you own calipers!
* Be sure NOT to over bell the case.  You need just enough bell so 1/2 of the base diameter seats in the mouth without forcing it in.  And if you screw up with a bell that looks like a large mouth bass's - just put the case back in the full length resizer and then JUST squeeze the mouth, not the full case

Good luck reloading, you'll get a little frustrated in the beginning getting the exact die/plug settings.  But after a few rounds, it will become old hat.  When you have to start over fiddling is if you change bullets!  I have fiddled a lot because I have 15 different 45-70 bullets that I loaded and shot over the years ...

Looking For The Magic Reload!

PS, We Want to See Target Pictures for Your Accomplishments!

[Wagon Box Willy]

*  And be sure to do the A-B-C-D formula that I gave you in the post on the SASS Wire to determine your COAL because it will also dictate how much you'll compress the powder column with the plug.  Ya got to fiddle to get the proper height which dictates the compression plug setting.  Sooooooo, be sure you own calipers!

Thanks Johnboy, a few questions.

COAL.  If I understand your post over on the Wire a properly loaded round should be just long enough so that the round when dropped into the chamber does not fall right in, but requires you to push it in for say the last little bit (I don't know if you mean 1/32" or what here) which would indicate that the bullet is making contact with the barrel?

Drop Tube.  I made one.  Got some 3/8" brass and cut it to 24" and mounted my Lee funnel on top.  Has anyone experimented with filling the end of the funnel with epoxy and then drilling it out so that the resultant hole is large enough so that the powder can slowly drop through it?  Seems to me that something like that would take away the variation in the drop and make it easier to boot cuz one would just pour the load into the funnel and wait for it to empty.

Thanks
 Willy

[john boy]

Willy, short answer - I don't use a drop tube.  I use a vibrator ... 

If you drop a bullet in the chamber that has a tapered nose (ogive), then tap the base with a pencil eraser ... the nose will be touching the leading land cuts of the bore.  I add nothing to the final COAL because usually I have to thumb the round into the chamber.  There nearly always is a minor variance in the length of the loaded round

[cpt dan blodgett]

John Boy

Finally got around to sticking my 3 different bullets into the chambers of both my Armi Sports Sharps and Rolling block.  Seems as though the Rolling block chamber is about .010 - .011 deeper than the sharps.  I now have COAL for the 3 different bullets for each of my rifles.  After thinking about it for a while I figured out seating depth = case lenght - distance to bottom of bullet.

I will now be able to set the compression die just right.   Measuring from the bottom of the bullet to the 1st driving band sure makes it look like the chambers of both my rifles are just about right for a 45/90

for the rest of you out there if you are using a hornady 45 /70 die the expander plug actual sticks far enough into the case to compress powder a litte too much.  Recommend belling cases prior to charging with powder

[john boy]

Recommend belling cases prior to charging with powder

Cpt, belling cases is all part of Case Preparation prior to charging the rounds.  The steps are:
*  Full length resizing for new cases - maybe for used cases
*  Annealing cases - one time step
*  Cleaning the cases in  rotary or vibratory tumbler
*  Flash hole reaming - one time step
*  Primer pocket reaming - one time step
*  Chamfering the case mouths
*  Belling the case mouths with the expander plug which is done down to the depth of the seated bullet to be used
Now the primers can be seated and the reloading process starts

[Wagon Box Willy]

Almost ready to start reloading, just waiting on the bullets from Slim.  I have new cases to prepare.  Do I trim the length before the first firing if it needs it.  I remember reading somewhere to wait until after they are fire formed.

Thanks
  Willy

[Mako]

Almost ready to start reloading, just waiting on the bullets from Slim.  I have new cases to prepare.  Do I trim the length before the first firing if it needs it.  I remember reading somewhere to wait until after they are fire formed.

Thanks
  Willy

Willy,
Don't ever trim virgin brass unless it won't chamber.  It's actually going to shrink on you.  It will probably end up being about .008 to .010" shorter after you've fired it about four or five times.  The rule of thumb is that straight walled rifle brass will "shrink" half of the amount it will go the first firing and the that much again over the next 3 or four times.

~Mako

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks Mako

[wildman1]

Willy,
Don't ever trim virgin brass unless it won't chamber.  It's actually going to shrink on you.  It will probably end up being about .008 to .010" shorter after you've fired it about four or five times.  The rule of thumb is that straight walled rifle brass will "shrink" half of the amount it will go the first firing and the that much again over the next 3 or four times.

~Mako

When I first got my 45 Colts and brass I measured it, it did not need trimmin. after shootin it a half a dozen times I checked it again, about 50% of it needed trimmin. WM

[Mako]

When I first got my 45 Colts and brass I measured it, it did not need trimmin. after shootin it a half a dozen times I checked it again, about 50% of it needed trimmin. WM

Wildman,
Take this in the good spirit it is given in.    Were talking apples and oranges here.  This is what I said,

The rule of thumb is that straight walled rifle brass will "shrink"

.45 Colt no matter what it is shot in is not rifle brass.  I'll also bet you are full length sizing that brass as well.  For precision rifle shooting almost everyone only neck sizes, if they even resize at all.  Then a slight bell to allow the bullet to seat, and I mean the minimum that will work.  Then into the crimping die just enough to straighten the brass out.  When the brass is "resized" or a belling mandrel run into the case the object is to keep the I.D. .002" smaller than the  bullet diameter.  That friction, not a roll crimp is what keeps the bullet where it needs to be.

A taper crimp die has to squeeze the brass down smaller than the final diameter to get a taper crimp like we use with semi-auto pistol ammunition.  If you take a loaded taper crimped lead .45 ACP round and then use a kinetic bullet puller to extract the bullet and measure it in comparison to an unloaded bullet you will measure and actually see that it has been squeezed smaller.  If you did the same with a correctly loaded .45-70 bullet the bullet would measure the same diameter before and after. 

So when people use taper "crimp" dies with rifle cartridges with lead bullets like the .45-70 they are using the taper crimp die to "iron out" the case, not compress it.   The interference fit you want is the product of the smaller case I.D. to the larger bullet .O.D. it is not the result of a crimp.

So what happens with virgin rifle brass when first fired is that it expands to fill the chamber.  The metal has to come from somewhere so the length decreases.  If the brass is not resized or just barely neck sized there is no major displacement or extrusion of the brass anywhere.  In the next few firings the brass literally takes on the full shape of the chamber, after that has happened you may start seeing some lengthening with higher pressure loads and big bullets.  With resizing the brass has to move somewhere, so it will go forward, but with BP cartridges very little.  If we were talking high pressure smokeless necked rifle rounds then you see growth to the front of the shoulders, but that is a different animal.

Shooters try to optimize their brass length to the length of the chamber, many don't trim unless it is too long until the brass has been fired at least twice.  The problem is that a lot of brass is actually too short or on the low end of the spec.  Some people use .45 "base" brass or a longer case like .45-90 and trim it to make sure they have the length they want.

When you full length size a case like a .45 Colt you are working the majority of the case.  The brass has to go somewhere as you work it and that is forward.  People who full length size often trim their brass to the minimum length knowing it will "grow" as the shoot and reload it.  For CAS shooting with lever rifles and revolvers length is not critical, with long range precision rifle shooting it is one of the factors the shooter will pay close attention to. 

So for reliability on the line with your lever rifle shooting pistol cartridges and for revolvers make sure your brass fits easily, especially if it may have been fired in a different chamber than the one it is going into.  This is a balancing act with BP, we want our cases to seal and prevent blowback, but we want them to feed and chamber like a greased pig.  Since Blowback is more of an issue with rifles some people intentionally shoot a different caliber or keep their rifle cases segregated and only neck size them.  For this reason I quit using the Lee (READ THIS CAREFULLY) Factory Crimp Pistol Dies or knocked the carbide sizing ring out.  They have a 2nd sizing ring in those crimping dies that makes semi-auto cartridges feed in pistols like grass through a goose.  But, they are BAD for BP.  You can use them and probably not notice, but they minimize the case final dimensions which is not good for BP.  I have ground some of the rings using an internal grinder on a lathe, but that is not practical for most people and I didn't see and major advantage to doing it.  So I just started pushing the carbide rings out because I do like the floating crimper inside the Lee PISTOL Factory Crimp dies.

Note, the Lee pistol dies are not the same as the rifle dies.  The Lee Factory Crimp RIFLE dies use a collapsing collet to make the crimp, this is EXCELLENT for BP cartridges.  Fortunately Lee considers the .38 WCF (.38-40)  and the .44 WCF (.44-40) rifle cartridges so they make those excellent and inexpensive dies for our two thin walled neck BP cartridges.  That is the best way to crimp a .44 WCF or .38 WCF in my experience.  There is little danger of collapsing a neck while trying to apply an aggressive roll crimp.  There is always the danger of collapsing a case during resizing, but that is a lubrication, technique and matching the brass issue.

Regards,
Mako

[Wagon Box Willy]

What about primers?  I have read that folks are starting to use pistol primers in their precision rounds.  Anyone here care to comment?  I have a few thousand Winchester Large Pistol and it would be convenient to be able to use those.

Thanks
  Willy

[Ranch 13]

 Willy if you're shooting the Winchester bpcr hiwall rifle, 458-459 diameter bullets will be just right. You most likely won't need to resize the cases , but for about every 3rd or 4th firing, so just putting a minor flare on the case mouth will be sufficient. Son't worry about the .460 diameter fiber wad, that's the standard diameter for 45 caliber rifles.
A compression die of some sort will serve you well. A drop tube isn't a big necessity, simply hold the powder pan above your funnel a few inches and pour slowly will get as much powder in the case as a drop tube. You'll still need to compress a 70 gr charge of 2 f to seat a greasegroove bullet heavier than about 350 grs.
Large rifle primers work just fine. Once you've got things to rolling along you may want to try large pistol primers to see if the accuracy improoves a bit.
It's really no more trouble to make loads capable of going to a match and being competitive than it is to just slop something together that will go bang and hurl a bullet out the end of the barrel.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks Ranch 13,

   Texas Mac had recommended .460-.461 based on all the measurements he made on the Winchester/Browning Badger barreled rifles and I slugged my barrel and measured .459+ with a few .460's so I went with .460 to start.

I did make a drop tube but it only cost me 5 bucks so I have no worries about not using it if I don't need to.

I ordered the Lee Shaver super grade Soule sight last night with his larger front sight.  Hopefully the pieces will fall together before we get deep snow so I can set up a target 75 yards in my back yard and see if I can hit it

I may start out with the Win Large Pistol for the back yard only because I won't be able to get to a gun shop in the near term.

Thanks
  Willy

[Dick Dastardly]

The venerable 45-70 Govt. has many missions.  Much of the sound advice presented here is for long distance BPCR competition.  But, this caliber has many other uses.  In fact, much of the advice given here would be useless for hunting.  The ammunition would fall apart in your pocket. 

Gathering small game for the camp would be better done with much lighter bullets and powder charges.  Same goes for "Plainsman" events.  Winchester 1886 tube magazine rifles would be safer with a RNFP bullet choice.

So Willy, as you work up your loads, keep the mission for the missiles you're manufacturing in mind.  You have a truly versatile gun there and it has many equally valid uses.  Don't box yourself in by thinking of only one shooting discipline.

DD-DLoS

[Ranch 13]

Willy be careful when you start seating those first rounds with that 460 bullet, you may end up having to seat those bullets pretty deep. The Winchester we have here that my wife shoots is tighter chambered than my shiloh.
After the case mouth is flared and you thumb seat the bullet in, the run the round back into the seating die and apply just enough crimp to take the flare out, there will be no problem with bullets falling out of the case.
Next order of bullets you may want to look at Montana Bullet works and order some Saeco 645 bullets.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Ranch 13, thanks for the help.  I cant wait to get the bullets and try out all the pointers you folks have given me. 

What is the advantage of the Saeco 645 over the Lyman 457132?

Thanks
  Willy

[Ranch 13]

For starters the Saeco at 480 grs weighs about 60 grs less. Less recoil is the first thing that grabs you, then getting more rounds per pound of lead.
Also I've found that shooting bullets over 500 grs in the 45-70 may actually be counterproductive even in the 1000 yd arena.
Another bullet that I like for short to midrange work and off hand loads, is the lyman 457124.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks for all the info.

At some point I'd like to cast at least my own 45/70 bullets if not also my Big Lubes for CAS but because I have a busy work schedule and don't have time scrounging around for deals on lead it seems way cheaper to just buy the bullets.

I'm retiring Dec 31st after 40 years with Uncle Sam and picking right up as a consultant so I can get my house fixed up and make my wife happy.  Happy wife hopefully means more shootin' in my real retirement

Willy

[Ranch 13]

My brother inlaw retired out of the Rock Island arsenal, the private contractor asked him to work "part time" for them. He ended up right back at his same desk doing his same job.....   Only now if he doesn't feel like going in he'll just tell them he's out of there for a couple weeks.