reloading 45/70 with Lee, an equipment question

[Wagon Box Willy]

Hody Folks,

I'm going to be using my Lee single stage press to reload 45/70 for BPCR.  I know I need the die set but have a questing on the neck expander/neck sizer.

Since I only have the one gun I plan on neck sizing only.  I found the neck sizing die on TOTW but I also found the neck expander die.

Do I actually have to use the neck sizer die and then the neck expander?  I think I also need the neck expander die for use with the compression plug to compress the powder so I guess I'm buying it anyway but don't understand the need for the expander plug.

Lastly, would this .025" thick .460 dia white card (WAD-460-B) be what I'd want to use over the powder?

Thanks
 Willy

[Wagon Box Willy]

I haven't decided on the brass or bullet as I am researching them.  I know Cuts Crooked likes the W-W stamped Winchester brass for the 45/70 but I have no idea where one would buy that...everything I see is Winchester stamped.

And I'm not opposed to getting the RCBS cowboy dies it's just that I've had good luck with the Lee plus they make the neck sizing die as I want to neck size only.

Any help on the entire 45/70 reloading subject will be appreciated.  Johnboy has already posted his process for me on the Wire.

Thanks
  Bill

[pony express]

Is the neck sizing die you are looking at a standard one, or the collet die lee makes for neck sizing? I.m not sure what the diameter of the mandrel of the collet die is, so MAYBE it would work without an expander die. With most resizing dies, the case is sized down untill the neck is too small for the bullet, then the neck expander opens it up again to the correct internal diameter. They do it this way because of variations in brass thickness. If all brass had exactly the same thickness, then you could make a resizing die that could get the correct INTERNAL diameter in the first step. While this doesn't apply with the Lee Collet die, because it sizes the internal diameter by squeezing the case against a mandrel, you may still need a die to slightly bell the case mouth, in order to seat the lead bullets without shaving lead.

[litl rooster]

the expander is just a drop in plug. get the one that fits the diameter of the bullett you are going to use.  I lso found the compression plug handy with black powder. Not really needed you could use alot of things and compress the powder. A dowel rod is helpfull with some markings to help guide the depth etc.   I'm using a mix of brass Win Starline and Remington.  Your mileage, can and most likely will vary

[pony express]

First, I'm not loading mine for any kind of long range competition, so maybe my way won't do for that....

I usually load a 45-55-405 load, I use a 3/8 wad from Circle Fly over the powder, I seat that with my Lyman expander die, no seperate powder compression step. My cases are mixed, som WW, some RP, and some WCC 52and 53(I think) "line thrower" cases inhereted from an uncle.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I am not noted for any exraordinary skill at BPCR, but I do use LEE dies.  Perhaps I should look into the neck sizing die, but I make do by adjusting the regular sizing die upwards until a bullet just refuses to enter the sized case neck. The die is at least 3/8" above the shell holder. Then I neck expand just enough to bell the mouth to accept the base of the bullet.  Perhaps not ideal but the brass gets worked very little.

I do sort by headstamp.  I have FC, R-P, and W-W. FC I reserve for smokeless, as it is heaviest and thus has less internal capacity.  W-W is lightest and has the greatest volume & I use it for blackpowder loads.  R-P is nearer to W-W than FC, but as it has the narrowest base diameter so I keep them for converting to .40-65 WCF for my Browning BPCR.  Sort & weigh your cases.  If they weigh within about 5 grains or so of each other try similar loads.  If the variation is greater I think you have work up loads separately.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks all.

After further research I'm thinking that maybe I will not need the 3pc lee die set.  I have a universal decapper and since I plan to only neck size maybe I should just buy the neck sizing die and the neck expander/compresser.

I too am not going to be a competitive BPCR shooter, I usually hope for no embarrassment and no injuries when I shoot but I do like to do things the right way so at least in the beginning, I plan on learning the process for accurate BPCR loads.

And where does one find W-W brass?

Willy

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I haven't been in the .45-70 case market recently, but if W-W cases have been superceded by "winchester"marked cases, I'm not sure if it makes no matter? If you don't have cases and are not seeking to surpass Quigly, buy what is most common in your area.  I have heard that Starline cases are good as well.  Unless the caliber occupies your life, 100 cases will last you a long time, and will be enough for most weekend matches.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Sir Charles, thanks

I'm looking for the W-W because I want to reduce blowback as much as I can since the Win 1885 is a bit difficult to clean.  I also want to avoid annealing which I would have to do if I go with the Starline.

And yes, I was just planning on 100 cases of whatever I buy.

Willy

[wildman1]

Willy if yer usin only one gun and loading full load BP you don't need to "neck size" just put yer BP in, compress (I use the powder filler and expander die) then seat yer bullet and crimp.  WM

[Wagon Box Willy]

Willy if yer usin only one gun and loading full load BP you don't need to "neck size" just put yer BP in, compress (I use the powder filler and expander die) then seat yer bullet and crimp.  WM

Wildman1, how do you use that die to compress?

Thanks
  Willy

[wildman1]

I don't Willy. I use a wooden dowel marked with a line. I use cardboard wads (from a Coke 12 pak) on top of the powder. My bullets just slide into the case, compress very slightly with the die and then get crimped. You can adjust the crimp so it suits ya. WM

[Marshal Deadwood]

Do you boys use a punched wax paper shield between the wad a bullet ? I found that cut my fliers totally out. I think I was sufferin' from wad sticking to the base of the bullet.

Just thought I'd toss this out,,seems to work good for me.

M. Deadwood

[wildman1]

No, but I do clean the lube off of the base of the bullet. I probably should use them but it hasn't seemed to be a problem so far. The only fliers I get are self imposed. WM

[john boy]

Willy, you will have better accuracy if you seat the bullet with a neck tension of 0.001 to 0.002 smaller than the base diameter of the bullet and only put a light crimp on the case to remove the bell that was created when you expanded to case to allow the bullet to be seated without stripping lead from the bullet base.
So, measure the base diameter of the bullet(s) that you intend to shoot.
Order a Lee Expansion Die and plug(s) from Track of the Wolf ...
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartList.aspx?catID=18&subID=128&styleID=433&as=1
Use this neck expander plug in our #LEE-DIE-45-EX die body, with standard 7/8-14 threads, in your reloading press. This Lee neck expander die body is also supplied in our #LEE-DIE-4570 die set for the .45-70 Government.

You can also use a smaller diameter expander plug to compress your powder column 

[wildman1]

Do some shootin, do some talkin ta folks, and when ya figure out the direction ya want ta take then go ahead and buy what ya need ta get ya there. WM

[Wagon Box Willy]

Do some shootin, do some talkin ta folks, and when ya figure out the direction ya want ta take then go ahead and buy what ya need ta get ya there. WM

hehe, too late for that   I bought my rifle on Gunbroker the other day.  Got a good deal (confirmed by Texas Mac) on a  new Winchester High Wall.  Gonna order Lee Shaver sights for it.

Just need to sort out the initial purchase of reloading dies/stuff for it.

Willy

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks Johnboy,

After your post I looked closer at the dies and realized the neck expander die was included.  Track of the Wolf says that the Badger barrel on my rifle has .458 grooves and recommends a .459 bullet.  I'll probably order .458-.459 plugs at $2.99 each and a compression plug.

The only .025 wads they have are .460 in diameter, will that be too big and make inserting it a pain?

For bullets I'm thinking about buying a batch from Springfield Slim, he has the Lyman Postell for sale at a reasonable price.  Any other recommendation of bullet or vendor?  I don't think I want to spring for the $25/50 Big Lube variety right off but may tray those out as I gain experience.

Thanks
  Willy

[Mako]

Thanks Johnboy,

After your post I looked closer at the dies and realized the neck expander die was included.  Track of the Wolf says that the Badger barrel on my rifle has .458 grooves and recommends a .459 bullet.  I'll probably order .458-.459 plugs at $2.99 each and a compression plug.

The only .025 wads they have are .460 in diameter, will that be too big and make inserting it a pain?

For bullets I'm thinking about buying a batch from Springfield Slim, he has the Lyman Postell for sale at a reasonable price.  Any other recommendation of bullet or vendor?  I don't think I want to spring for the $25/50 Big Lube variety right off but may tray those out as I gain experience.

Thanks
  Willy

I was writing that you need to listen to John Boy, when you posted that.  His advice is sound.

However you don't need a Ø.459 expanding plug.  You need to get  the Ø.457 and Ø.458 plugs, the .459 is too big.  As John Boy says you size the case inside diameter .001 t .002" smaller than the bullet diameter and you set the plug depth to barely give you a slight bell that is your lead-in.  Your "crimp" die needs to be backed off to only straighten this bell back out after seating your bullet. You don't need a crimp with this type of precision load, you use the neck tension to hold your bullet.  The bullet hitting the lands upon firing provides the resistance you need to build your pressure consistently.

One last thing, see where John Boy mentioned a smaller diameter plug to compress your powder?  That is important, because you don't want a lot of pressure on the base of the bullet trying to push it back out.  Since you don't have (or want) a heavy crimp to hold the bullet in position you need to pre-compress the powder which crushes it down and gives you a uniform volume.  Now the neck tension only has to hold the bullet, not resist powder trying to push it back up.  You will get much more uniform bullet ogive position relative to the lands in the barrel from cartridge to cartridge pre-compressing the powder than trying to use the bullet to do it. 

The Ø.446 plug is probably ideal for that. It gives you about .005-.006" clearance per side while you are compressing so you won't mess up your nice neck fit you have already set when you re-sized the case.  Perhaps John Boy will speak to this with his experience.

One last thing, I love Big Lube Bullets,  but for precision long range the Postell 535-545 gr is going to be a better long range performer.  If you were shooting 10 round fast strings in a CAS match you need the Big Lube Bullets.  You will soon find out the Postell and other similar .45 bullets dominate the long range matches.  For shorter matches like the local club Billy Dixon shoots the DD-PRS 45-70 400gr does pretty well and it is a great bullet for Malin or Winchester pattern lever rifles.  Getting them from Slim is a good idea, you can't find a better guy to do business with.

Congratulations,
Mako

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Willy

If you don't already have it, get yourself a copy of Mike Venturino's Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. This is the best primer I have found for loading the old single shot cartridges with Black Powder. Mike has one chapter devoted to standard techniques for loading the single shot cartridges. It is not the same as loading your Main Match ammo. He has a second chapter that has tips from the experts.

http://www.mlventerprises.com/buffalogun.htm

You can also buy it from Amazon.

I just checked, and all the Winchester brass that I have bought within the last couple of years actually has the W-W (Winchester Western) head stamp on it. It comes in Winchester bags, but it is marked W-W. I have been very happy with this brass. I had some Federal brass that I could not size no matter what I did. It kept jamming in my resizing die no matter what I did. I finally threw it all away.

I reload 45-70 with a RCBS three die set. I also bought a compression die from Buffalo Arms. This die does not expand the neck, it is a loose fit. I expand my brass first, then I remove the expander plug from the expander die and screw the compression plug into the die body. I have stops on both plugs so the settings are repeatable. I thought about buying another die body, but this works fine.

I use a .030 Circle Fly card wad between my powder and my bullet. And I trickle my powder in through a drop tube.

Hope this helps.