Post 2011 Grand Muster Muster guidelines diiscussion

[US Scout]

A 3rd criterea for champion might be a good idea and maybe even  elegability of the civilian classes should be adderssed.  I've seen some great shooting and uniforms in the scout class and great milspec shooting with more civilian outfits. I know we are military based but it's a thought.

I also think that while the recent "points" sytem of scoring the shooting coompetition sounds interesting,  I would prefer that it not be manditory to the musters.  Some areas prefer the starderd CAS time plus miss penelties system or the straight time  and no miss method or even a hit precentage score.   I believe the shooting scoring is best left up the the match director at this tiime.

We believe we have come up with a third component toward the Brigade Champion (BC), plus having additional opportunities to place in the uniform competition, thus opening up more chances to win the BC.  However, until we reach a concensus I don't want to address the details at this time. 

The Muster Guide already includes a system for scoring the shooting, which was not used at the 2011 Muster.  The GAF system is neither SASS nor NCOWS, but GAF.  We will insist this scoring system be utilized.  One reason is because GAF if neither NCOWS or SASS, using the rifle as its primary firearm and we have our own shooting categories.  A second reason is to provide consistency between Department, Division and Grand Musters.  Likewise, the stages will be set according to the GAF Muster Guide, with allowance for range safety requirements, to provide consistency and maintain our own standards. 

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Pitspitr]

"consistency "
Thank you. "consistency " That was the word I was "feeling about for"

[Bow View Haymaker]

I just don't want to see to many limitations put upon the match directors.  GAF doesn't have a home range or any home clubs that I know of.  We have to relly on the gratoius generosity of the match directors and ranges that have continued to help the GAF Musters grow, each one being a unique expierence.  I dont want to lose that.  I think we dont' what to lose that momentum.  I know this is still a work in progress and we should consider all possibilities.

[Trap]

  I have looked in the Muster guide ,but cannot find guidelines for scoring shooting. where should I look?

[Pitspitr]

Trap
When the Muster Guide was written the authors felt somethings didn't need to be spelled out. We recently realized that certain parts were too vague, other parts simply didn't work as expected and that there are better ways of doing somethings than what we knew at the time. The Command Staff is already at work updating the Muster Guide. My personal hope is that we can complete the project by the first of the year so that match directors for the various Troop, Divisional, Departmental and Grand Muster directors will have plenty of time to implement the changes. Rest assured that you will be one of the first to receive the revised editions.

Paul,
The Command Staff understands your concern and and we do want each muster to have a unique flavor that only that range and director can supply, but as Gen. Scout has said there does need to be some consistancy. I know that you are a dedicated SASS shooter as well as a GAF member. Imagine for a moment you go to a major SASS match expecting a SASS standard 10-10-4 stage format match. You get there only to find out that the entire match is going to be shot using only a shotgun and you didn't bring ammunition enough. (OK i realize this is an extreme analogy but...) SASS has got where it is because it has consistant guidelines. Some clubs use smaller targets and place them farther away, while other clubs like them huge and close enough that you can almost touch them with the gun barrel, but both probably fall inside SASS's guidelines.

[US Scout]

I just don't want to see to many limitations put upon the match directors.  GAF doesn't have a home range or any home clubs that I know of.  We have to relly on the gratoius generosity of the match directors and ranges that have continued to help the GAF Musters grow, each one being a unique expierence.  I dont want to lose that.  I think we dont' what to lose that momentum.  I know this is still a work in progress and we should consider all possibilities.

We're not imposing limitations on the Muster Director with regard to safety or range restrictions, however we do want to maintain a consistency between Musters so that its not a total grab-bag as to how its going to be run or scored when you arrive.  SASS has their guidelines, NCOWS has their guidelines, NSSA has their guidelines, and we have ours.  However we will follow the host range's safety guidelines, and structure our stages accordingly.

We are quite proud of the fact that our stages don't (or at least shouldn't) have targets laid out nice and neat in a row to allow a quick progression.  We encourage the MD to have the targets spread out and at varying ranges, perhaps partially concealed, so that it is more of a challenge.

[US Scout]

  I have looked in the Muster guide ,but cannot find guidelines for scoring shooting. where should I look?

We just noticed that we didn't include the scoring guidelines in the Guide.  It's an oversight that is being corrected, along with a few other things we noticed we failed to fully define.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Bow View Haymaker]

I appoligize if I sounded negative towards consitency.  I'ts just that I have noticed that the GAF not having home clubs puts us a bit at the mercy of wherever the muster is at.  I know guidlines are needed.  I also think that the variety is part of what makes the GAF musters so darn much fun!  The simple fact that many cowboy club monthly matches have many more shooters than our national  makes the logistics a bit of a chalange also.  

Some great old west style ranges can't handle anything over 25yrd shots with a straight firing some with or without divided shooting bays.  Other places are an open field with plenty of room but no props and little cover.  others have all the natural terain you could want.  I understand that these variables are being considedred.  I know it is a chalange to try to find a fits all concept.

Just my random thoughts


PS:  (maybe its time for this discusion to have it's own thread?)

[RattlesnakeJack]

I have been laid up with a vicious cold, and otherwise engaged .... hence my absence from a discussion I largely initiated.

I should just jump in at this stage to stress that two factors are vital to GAF Musters, from my perspective at any rate:

1.  The unique military-oriented firearm categories and format - i.e as already stated, this is GAF, not SASS, or NCOWS, or anything else.

2.  Consistent application of GAF guidelines from one Muster to another. (Not to say that such guidelines won't gradually evolve over time ....)

I say this as the individual who has likely come the furthest to attend Musters, and who has attended as many Musters (seven of the eight so far) as anyone, I believe.  I can take part in lots of "cowboy action shoots" much closer to home - and thus much more conveniently and economically - than attending GAF Musters .....  It is the GAF uniqueness which keeps me coming!

[Pitspitr]

PS:  (maybe its time for this discusion to have it's own thread?)

I agree and so it shall be.

[US Scout]

I appoligize if I sounded negative towards consitency.  I'ts just that I have noticed that the GAF not having home clubs puts us a bit at the mercy of wherever the muster is at.  I know guidlines are needed.  I also think that the variety is part of what makes the GAF musters so darn much fun!  The simple fact that many cowboy club monthly matches have many more shooters than our national  makes the logistics a bit of a chalange also.  

Some great old west style ranges can't handle anything over 25yrd shots with a straight firing some with or without divided shooting bays.  Other places are an open field with plenty of room but no props and little cover.  others have all the natural terain you could want.  I understand that these variables are being considedred.  I know it is a chalange to try to find a fits all concept.

The Muster Guide makes allowance for the restrictions of the range, but we need to keep our own scoring system, and whenever possible our own stage concepts, otherwise we'll be just another CAS group.  The idea is that Muster Director designs a Muster within the limitations of the host range, especially its safety rules, but that the Muster be structured to conform to the GAF's concepts, not those of SASS or NCOWS. 

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Bow View Haymaker]

General,  I agree.

Consitency with freedom and uniquely GAF.

I think I've caught up to your train of thought.


I think I was confusing Brigade chanmpion points and shooting score points.

[Books OToole]

Two things to consider:

1) When scoring hits (with time as a tie breaker) all scores are easily converted to a percentage.

2) The "Little rule" should be repealed.  (Staff officers did not shoot at long range targets.  They probably did not draw ther sidearm unless they were being over run.) Reloads definatly, but no shooting of rifle targets.  (That are what enlisted men are for.)

Respectfully;
Michael "Books" Tatham
AAAG
Chief of Arty. Div. of Mo.

[pony express]

Interesting discussion on scoring...I've been to 3 Grand Musters so far, plus one Division of Missouri, with 3 different scoring systems used. (Misses +10 sec penalty, hits with tie breaker, total time with all targets knocked down) Enjoyed ALL of them. Just let me know ahead of time which one it is, so I can make adjustments! I like a system that emphasizes aimed fire and hitting the target, as opposed to "missing fast enough to win". The system used at 2011 Division of Missouri Muster accomplishes that, but it would be hard to manage without all knockdown targets, plus if the competition was close, the stopwatches we used aren't as precise as a shot timer. Hits with time for tie breaker puts emphasis on aiming too, but I can see how that could wind up being a "slow fire" match. I admit, if I had known about the scoring system from the outset, my DA Colt would have stayed in the car, and the slower to reload SAA used in it's place(the vast majority of my misses were with that 1892..... )

[Niederlander]

We have a pretty unique range for the Division of the Missouri, and going to all knock-down targets really simplifies the scoring.  It comes down to you shoot until all the targets are down.  We noticed this year (the first time we used all knock-down targets) that you can't miss more than about twice per stage and remain competitive, time-wise.  You just can't miss and reload fast enough!  I realize, though, that most ranges couldn't accomodate our system.  We have considered using shot timers for keeping time, and may very well do that in 2012.  I personally would like feedback on our scoring system from people who shot at the Department of the Missouri Muster so we can take it into consideration while planning for 2012.

[Pitspitr]

Interesting discussion on scoring...I've been to 3 Grand Musters so far, plus one Division of Missouri, with 3 different scoring systems used. (Misses +10 sec penalty, hits with tie breaker, total time with all targets knocked down) Enjoyed ALL of them. Just let me know ahead of time which one it is, so I can make adjustments!

This is my entire point about consistancy

I like a system that emphasizes aimed fire and hitting the target, as opposed to "missing fast enough to win". The system used at 2011 Division of Missouri Muster accomplishes that, but it would be hard to manage without all knockdown targets, plus if the competition was close, the stopwatches we used aren't as precise as a shot timer.

We did that EoE match at the '10 Deparment muster without knockdowns and it is more challenging (especially with the smallbores at longer range), but it can be done. I expect to go to a shot timer instead of the stopwatch this year as to me it simplifies things.

my DA Colt would have stayed in the car, and the slower to reload SAA used in it's place(the vast majority of my misses were with that 1892..... )

My DA Smith (...and my Schofield, and my Colt SAA, and my '58 Remington conversion for that matter) should have stayed there too but I sure enjoyed shooting it/them and I learned a thing or two in the process.

[pony express]

Do they make a shot timer that goes more than about 2 minutes? The ones we have will start agin from zero after that. I guess you could use a combination stopwatch and shot timer, but that's more math than I want to be doing if I'm the scorekeeper.

[Niederlander]

Do they make a shot timer that goes more than about 2 minutes? The ones we have will start agin from zero after that. I guess you could use a combination stopwatch and shot timer, but that's more math than I want to be doing if I'm the scorekeeper.

I hadn't thought of that.  I'll have to check mine to see if it will go longer than that.

[Dusty Tagalon]

I do agree with Books, Officers shoot pistol targets only with an extra reload.
In the same sense, an Infantryman only engages rifle targets, with an extra 5 reload.

I thought in previous musters, a lone shooter could compete for brigade champion. However, they wouldn't get 1st place points.

Brian

[c.o.jones]

I suggest we not play the speed game. HITS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN SPEED.