Why so many guns?

[Marshal Deadwood]

We tried something at our last match that was a hoot. The Josey Wales category . Four revolvers and a shotgun. Shoot the rifle targets with revolvers. Since we set our rifle targets at 60 yds, it was  super fun shooting the other two revolvers instead of a rifle. We were judge right along with the others,,same as if'n we'd shot a rifle.  Scores for us 'josey wales' shooters were lower,,but WHO CARES !!

I suppose you could shoot this with two revolvers and a shotgun, and reload on the clock.

MD

[BlackCatBriggs]

I think maybe when I show up to a December match somewhere around here in East AL/West GA, I'll ask if someone wants to try a "reloadin' match" with me, just for kicks. I might not get any takers, but it sure would be fun to give it a try.

Then again, maybe I should be more concerned with borrowing guns than anything else. Maybe I can find someone in my area willing to let me get practice on the guns I'd borrow at the match. I don't know about Zepps up there, but my main issue with borroing weapons is the unfarmiliarity of them. I don't feel like I'd be very comfortable during the match holding a firearm for the first time. I'd be especially frightened at the loading table. I've only loaded/unloaded an SAA clone once in my life. What if their's is different somehow? What if the ejector pin doesn't work and I sit there like an idiot trying to push brass out while I'm supposed to just tip the gun? What if they've got some weird custom grips that don't fit my hand very well?

That's why I want my own guns, starting of course with the pistols. Having your own gun really changes the feel of any shooting sport. You know all the little quirks of the action, you know how it feels in your hands, and you are free to change it to feel better. The owned gun is like a trusted companion, something you know you've got and can expect certain things out of. A borrowed gun is frightening and, in some cases, dangerous. It can still be fun, mind you, but I think most people will agree with me here that there's a difference between using your natural skill to shoot efficiently, and using your trusted sidearm to shoot reliably.

[bowiemaker]

BlackCatBriggs, I was in the same position as you. I wanted to give it a try but I didn't have a bunch of money to spend on guns and I was not comfortable borrowing guns. I joined NCOWS and planned to shoot Working Cowboy so I saved up and bought a Ruger Vaquero. At my first shoot I did borrow a Rossi 1892 rifle. I had a great time and I was hooked. As I got the money I bought more guns because I wanted shoot more at the matches. Now I can shoot whatever class suits my mood at a match but I still usually shoot Working Cowboy.

It is good advice not to buy until you attend a match. See how it works, ask questions, try a few guns to see what you really like, and then you will make better purchases from the start.

I very much agree that both SASS and NCOWS need some kind of entry level one or two gun class for beginners. If you ask, you will learn that you can get started with one or two guns but I think a lot of people read the rules and all they see is that they need three or four guns and that puts them off before they ever get started.

[Two-Step]

I have posted about, asked, and suggested much of the same as what I am seeing in this thread. There seems to be no real logical answers as to why SASS does not have a more affordable way to get involved with CAS, nor why it can not be done. A lot of it really seems to come down to "he with the most toys wins" philosophy of life.

I am actually surprised that someone has not started a CAS organization that follows much of what has been suggested in this and other forums... I feel that this would be a great way to get new people in to CAS, simply because "sticker shock" would not be nearly as off putting.

NCOWS is a relatively easy to get in to, weapon wise, but they are far more restrictive on fashion. Mounted cowboy shooting is easier on the guns ( limited to .45 cal)  and clothing, but having and maintaining a trained horse is necessary for participation. Fast Draw only requires participants to have one gun, but they are strictly limited to "pistol only" and have no accommodations for rifle or shotgun shooters. SASS is by far the most popular CAS organization but then, there is the "4 gun" thing to worry about.

I have been told by a few people that "if you can't afford it, then don't play". It is that type of elitist attitude that puts many people off from CAS. But, for the most part, CAS folks are very welcoming and many are even willing to share equipment... even with those that are competing directly against them in an event. This seems to be especially true with the SASS folks.

I would truly like to see a CAS organization based more along the lines of IPSC, the origins of SASS.

[Major 2]

Two Step  a question for you  

You state " NCOWS is a relatively easy to get in to, weapon wise, but they are far more restrictive on fashion"

I ask because, I don't know if you are a NCOWS Member or perhaps you are repeating a Misconception.

The truth is a very good percentage of SASS shooters are already at NCOWS Level 1 or better (2 even 3)
The exceptions would be Buscadro rigs and/or fast draw rigs , and Silver Screen Hero costuming.

In addition, a member has up to 1 year to get their kit to level one, and if they chose may stay at level one for their entire experience with NCOWS.
Equally, they may chose to enhance their persona and move to level 2 or 3 or even Originals.

I just wanted to set the rumors straight  

[joec]

Two Step  a question for you 

You state " NCOWS is a relatively easy to get in to, weapon wise, but they are far more restrictive on fashion"

I ask because, I don't know if you are a NCOWS Member or perhaps you are repeating a Misconception.

The truth is a very good percentage of SASS shooters are already at NCOWS Level 1 or better (2 even 3)
The exceptions would be Buscadro rigs and/or fast draw rigs , and Silver Screen Hero costuming.

In addition, a member has up to 1 year to get thier kit to level one, and if they chose may stay at level one for their entire experience with NCOWS.
Equally, they may chose to enhance their persona and move to level 2 or 3 or even Originals.

I just wanted to set the rumors straight 

If I can add to that as a relatively new member of NCOWS. The costuming is the price of a pair of pants, shirt, suspenders and boots/shoes as well as a hat. Now you can get carried away with anything as I did getting way more than I needed but then I have two complete outfits that can be mixed and matched to make others. I got mine up front as it was on a good sale at the time.

As for the guns I bought a Uberti Cattleman and a Rossi Rifle to start. I've since bought 2 more 1873 Colt clones (ASM and Cimarron) as well as a 12 ga SxS shotgun. My most expensive gun was the Cimarron at $449 + 6% sales tax with the cheapest at $250 including a holster. I bought an inexpensive holster and belt to start and later having ClifFendleyly build me one to my likes.

At any rate it by far was cheaper than golf, car racing or a few other hobbies I've had, and just as much fun.

[Cliff Fendley]

Good grief, it's amazing how people are mislead about the outfit for NCOWS. Yes there are those that strive to make their outfit perfect and by hearing them talk that misleads people.

Here's all it takes to get a complete NCOWS outfit.

Hamilton dry goods has plain period outfits, pants, suspenders, shirt, and socks for 69 dollars.

Find any old hat and twist it around in a shape that would have looked correct for the period. I can pretty much take any felt cowboy hat and make it pass, basically if it has no real style it would be correct.

A pair of Wellington style work boots and your good done with a level one outfit.

Even if you bought it all new your probably a little over 200 dollars for the entire outfit.

[Bow View Haymaker]

The Grand Army of the Frontier is a CAS organization that use 2 or 1 gun in it's shooti8ng catagories.  Check out the Barraks hear on CASCITY.  The Scout class is 1 pistol and SASS  rifle.  Staff officer or Infantryman are both 1 gun classes.  the milspecrifle catagories are the real heart of the group  Unfortunatly there are not many musters held around the country.  We are trying to change that.  You DO NOT have to wear a uniform to participate but the museum quality uniforms that some members have are recognizes and their efforts rewarded. 
Look into it.  Maybe get something started localy.  try to attend a state, regional or national muster.  great fun.

[Two-Step]

Good grief, it's amazing how people are mislead about the outfit for NCOWS. Yes there are those that strive to make their outfit perfect and by hearing them talk that misleads people.

Here's all it takes to get a complete NCOWS outfit.

Hamilton dry goods has plain period outfits, pants, suspenders, shirt, and socks for 69 dollars.

Find any old hat and twist it around in a shape that would have looked correct for the period. I can pretty much take any felt cowboy hat and make it pass, basically if it has no real style it would be correct.

A pair of Wellington style work boots and your good done with a level one outfit.

Even if you bought it all new your probably a little over 200 dollars for the entire outfit.

I have actually mentioned wellingtons with NCOWS members and gotten less than positive (to put it nicely) replies from some NCOWS members. Forget the fact that I did an in depth report on Vulcanization and the use of Rubber during the 19th Century and could show evidence of it's use in America, during the "golden age of the old west".
Part of the reason that so many people are mislead by NCOWS fashion rules may be a matter of how it is written... that and some of the NCOWS folks are very vocal about "if it ain't documented, you can't use it". Really, it is just off putting.
Also, since I am more of the "fun loving, silver screen, wild west show, Saturday morning, "B" western, just having fun with a gun type" NCOWS fashion is restrictive in that regard which is exactly what I mean by "more restrictive" than the SASS and other CAS organizations.

[Cliff Fendley]

I have actually mentioned wellingtons with NCOWS members and gotten less than positive (to put it nicely) replies from some NCOWS members. Forget the fact that I did an in depth report on Vulcanization and the use of Rubber during the 19th Century and could show evidence of it's use in America, during the "golden age of the old west".
Part of the reason that so many people are mislead by NCOWS fashion rules may be a matter of how it is written... that and some of the NCOWS folks are very vocal about "if it ain't documented, you can't use it". Really, it is just off putting.
Also, since I am more of the "fun loving, silver screen, wild west show, Saturday morning, "B" western, just having fun with a gun type" NCOWS fashion is restrictive in that regard which is exactly what I mean by "more restrictive" than the SASS and other CAS organizations.

I completely understand what your saying but go to the shoots and look how people are dressed and then judge. Most look correct but many of the clothes are of more modern materials and construction. There are about three types of "period" boots that I see many of the members wearing and they have rubber soles. I normally wear my Wellington style work boots, they look just as correct as what many others are wearing. My Tony Lamas are much more correct in construction but don't have the right look because of stitching and too pointed of toe.

[Two-Step]

I completely understand what your saying but go to the shoots and look how people are dressed and then judge. Most look correct but many of the clothes are of more modern materials and construction. There are about three types of "period" boots that I see many of the members wearing and they have rubber soles. I normally wear my Wellington style work boots, they look just as correct as what many others are wearing. My Tony Lamas are much more correct in construction but don't have the right look because of stitching and too pointed of toe.

All I am trying to say is that NCOWS is more restrictive on clothing, than some other CAS organizations.... nothing more that that.


ONCE AGAIN...
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = permitted by SASS and some other CAS groups
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = not permitted by NCOWS
NCOWS = more restrictive than SASS in regards to clothing.

MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Cowboy Fast Draw legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = CMS Legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Not NCOWS legal
NCOWS = More restrictive than CFD and CMS, in regards to clothing

It is not a complaint about NCOWS, it is merely a statement of clothing restrictions as it relates to NCOWS as it compares to other CAS organizations... as they are stated by the NCOWS rule book.

My observation of NCOWS vs other CAS groups is not about the specific materials used for clothing, but rather the specified style mentioned by NCOWS, to include the cut and style of the clothing. It isn't about the cost of one style over another, but rather about the dictated fashion accepted by NCOWS as opposed to other CAS organizations.

I, like a lot of people, have plenty of "special use" clothing that I (we) wish was as inexpensive as NCOWS "legal" clothing. It isn't a matter of cost, but rather about the style of clothing that makes NCOWS more restrictive than other CAS organizations. It isn't a bad thing, just more restrictive than SASS, Cowboy Mounted, and Cowboy Fast Draw.

A VERY GOOD SOURCE OF NCOWS GARB AND GEAR EXPECTATIONS: http://www.ncows.org/outfit1.html

Think of it this way...
The wife tells you to paint the bathroom blue. There are many shades of blue to choose from, but red is not one of them. That is the difference between NCOWS and other CAS organizations, in regards to clothing.
SILVER SCREEN CLOTHING in the NCOWS = The kitchen getting painted red.

[Bugscuffle]

Because the fun of CAS shooting is not a linear progression. It is expotential. You double the guns and you get four times the fun. You tripple the guns you get nine times the fun. With four guns you get sixteen times the fun. O.K.?

[Cliff Fendley]

All I am trying to say is that NCOWS is more restrictive on clothing, than some other CAS organizations.... nothing more that that.


ONCE AGAIN...
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = permitted by SASS and some other CAS groups
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = not permitted by NCOWS
NCOWS = more restrictive than SASS in regards to clothing.

MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Cowboy Fast Draw legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = CMS Legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Not NCOWS legal
NCOWS = More restrictive than CFD and CMS, in regards to clothing

It is not a complaint about NCOWS, it is merely a statement of clothing restrictions as it relates to NCOWS as it compares to other CAS organizations... as they are stated by the NCOWS rule book.

My observation of NCOWS vs other CAS groups is not about the specific materials used for clothing, but rather the specified style mentioned by NCOWS, to include the cut and style of the clothing. It isn't about the cost of one style over another, but rather about the dictated fashion accepted by NCOWS as opposed to other CAS organizations.

I, like a lot of people, have plenty of "special use" clothing that I (we) wish was as inexpensive as NCOWS "legal" clothing. It isn't a matter of cost, but rather about the style of clothing that makes NCOWS more restrictive than other CAS organizations. It isn't a bad thing, just more restrictive than SASS, Cowboy Mounted, and Cowboy Fast Draw.

A VERY GOOD SOURCE OF NCOWS GARB AND GEAR EXPECTATIONS: http://www.ncows.org/outfit1.html

Think of it this way...
The wife tells you to paint the bathroom blue. There are many shades of blue to choose from, but red is not one of them. That is the difference between NCOWS and other CAS organizations, in regards to clothing.
SILVER SCREEN CLOTHING in the NCOWS = The kitchen getting painted red.

I must have misunderstood what your saying but it does not cost any more and I thought that is what you were implying since this thread was started in regards to needing so many guns.

I guess I have a hard time understanding what the big deal is since NCOWS legal clothing is not that expensive and if a person winds up buying a more formal NCOWS type outfit it can be worn to other formal wear events.

The link doesn't work and I didn't understand why the kitchen has too be painted red if your wife want's a blue bathroom. 

Of course I'm kind of dumb so maybe it's just me, maybe my wife can explain that one.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Try this experiment.
Start a CAS Club.
Charge yearly dues of about $25.
Find a range and set up Sages including targets.
Charge about $10 to $15 per match.
At each stage have a 'Cowboy' with one revolver shoot 5 targets.
Now have about 5 stages, maybe 6.
Having fired the 25 to 30 rounds, pick a winner.
Go home and do the match again next month.
Likely by the second, or at most the third, month you'll figure out why SASS has multiple guns.

[Camille Eonich]

The topic of this thread is "Why so Many Guns?".  Let's move back to that please.

IMO one gun just would not make a fun match.  IPSC is different in that you can rapidly reload while changing magazines and it can be done safely on the run.  I would not want to try to reload a single action on the move, standing still at a table is tedious enough when on the clock.  I go to a match to shoot...

[Marshal Deadwood]

2006 NC State Ladies Traditional Champion
2007 NC State Ladies Traditional Champion
2007 EOT Ladies Traditional 4th place (17th lady overall)
2009 NC State BP State Champion

Impressive credentials, Camille.

I also go to match's to shoot,,,and shoot,,,,,,,,,,,,,and shoot. One can not shoot TOO MANY guns !

Waiting in rotation to shoot one gun,,or even two, would ,,,in my opinion,,, stifle the game a good bit. I know guns are expensive, and I also know times are tight on all of us, but I have to come down on the side of present SASS requirements  on this subject.

Deadwood

[Camille Eonich]

Thank you. 


I put a fairly long post in another thread about what would have to take place in order to incorporate a 1 or two gun category into SASS but most just ignored it.  Most people that are talking about it don't know that not only are our matches a competition within categories but also overall.  There would really be a lot more to it than just showing up and shooting with one or two guns especially since most of the people inquiring about doing so aren't also willing to take misses for targets not engaged.

I wrote and directed matches for Iredell Regulators and other clubs for 2+ years.  I was the president of the NC State Match Committee for three years all three of which were sell outs with people on the waiting list.  The only reason that I mention this is because I do know a little bit about putting on matches and the inner workings of doing so.  I am also a software developer and heavily modified one of the available SASS scoring programs to suit the needs of both clubs that I regularly did scoring for.  Custom reports, a few modifications to make things a little easier on us for entering data and things of that nature.

[Pony Racer]

CE - you are one of my personal favs!

Hope to shoot with you SW again one of these days down the line...

PR

[Camille Eonich]

WOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO Pony racer! TY 


You will.  I really need to get back to Lost River my all time mostest favorite place to shoot.

[Tall Dark Slim]

Camille makes two good points:
The capacity of the weapons is too little to have a few gun match and the time it takes to reload the weapons is horrendous. For the people that are fast at this and proposing it: take your time and multiply it by four and take the number of people at the match and figure 80% or better are going to do it at that speed worst case scenario. All day...all night...Maryann!!!

Trying to arrange all the current categories and the "oddballs" shooting one or two or three guns instead of the full arsenal SEPARATELY is just too much for the poor stats person. Talk about a truly thankless job....doing the stats after having been at the match all day and possibly setting up and tearing down. Too fast and nobody really notices the effort....too slow and the whole world complains.