Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels"

[Norton Commando]

"No one will know the difference"!   Of course 95% of the viewers will probably not.

Heck, I'm betting 99% will not know the difference. And even those that do know the difference will not be detered from watching!

[The Elderly Kid]

There's a great line out there just waiting for an actor in one of these movies to deliver it. Something along the lines of: "In the South, we didn't turn our swords into plowshares. We turned our church bells into guns."

[Junkman]

That's brilliant! 

[Lead Zeppelin]

Wasn't there also a lot of "captured" Northern guns used by the South?  Early in the war, as the South pushed North, I suspect they were able to acquire large quantities of Northern made firearms.  A lot of those captured guns probably changed hands back the other way by the end of the war!   

[Mako]

Wasn't there also a lot of "captured" Northern guns used by the South?  Early in the war, as the South pushed North, I suspect they were able to acquire large quantities of Northern made firearms.  A lot of those captured guns probably changed hands back the other way by the end of the war!  

You betcha...

You have to remember there were also government arsenals in the South that were "liberated" at the beginning of the war.  Plus there were all of the guns that had been sold to Southerners before the war.  Check this out:

http://antiquearmsinc.com/colt-1860-fluted-army-revolver-44-hartford-confederate-georgia-richmond-texas-kittredge-folsom-natchez.htm

Until the Spring of 1861 Colt's was still shipping to the South.  In fact there was a charge of treasonous activity leveled at Colt by some newspapers because they continued to sell until the last moment and some deliveries were in shipment as the war was already in progress.

Some things were captured once the war was on, for instance the troops at Haper's Ferry burned the arsenal in April of '61 but a lot was salvaged especially the equipment that was sent down top factories in Richmond.  The fleeing garrison was more concerned about the assembled weapons and munition stores than the parts and equipment.

Pistols like 1860s were purchased by officers in the Army from 1860 to 1861 and took them with them if they sided with the CSA.  The most common military revolver had been the U.S. Model 1848 and all of the civilian guns that showed up when the troops arrived from places like Texas.  There were a lot of Colt revolvers already in the South. There were fewer pistols like Remingtons, most collectors and historians I know tend to think of them more as Yankee pistols, however any pistol captured would have been pressed into service.

Both sides shared the same calibers whether it be .577 or .68 (they could use the same bullets),  .44, .36 or .31 caliber pistols.  A Confederate unit may have been carrying Springfield '55s, '61s, Colt '62 rifles, Zouave rifles, '53 & '61Enfiield rifles (the North used them as well), '41 Mississippi rifles, Richmond Rifles...Henrys, Spencers, squirrel rifles, shotguns (used a lot by Southern cavalry) and on and on...Then there was every kind of pistol imaginable.

~Mako

[Slowhand Bob]

I once read that Remington tended to be far more loyalist than was Colt, who was more profit and sales oriented.  As a small kid I grew up very close to Griswoldville,Ga (all I ever heard it called) and wish I had poked around in the dirt there as years later stories of interesting finds emerged as the popularity of metal detectors rose.   I remember a historian guest on a local radio station reading from a letter written by a Yankee officer to a superior concerning the battle of Griswoldville.  The basic jist of it was that at some point the officer realized that the attack against his line had something terrible wrong going on.  When he stopped his troops from firing he realized that there had been virtually no return fire in the assaults on his line and told the sad tale of old men and boys repeatedly grouping and charging with little more than farm implements and bayonets.   Wish I could find the exact text of that letter and I am sure it still exists but Lord only knows where to look.  Truly a tragic story and even very few locals know about it now days.

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ga/county/taylor/jones/military/griswoldville.htm

[Delmonico]

I look at it as "it's only a movie."  Ain't watched it, may not for months, way to busy to take the time.  Way to busy with a serious PC up-date on the old cook camp, it won't be perfect, just better.  Got a bunch of mending to do also, I like the old well worn stuff, I hate going out in the general public trying to looks like someone that's been out away from town on the prairie for a while and looking like I just walked out of a dry goods store.  Not a bad look for around town though.

So since like all of the movies, the "experts" are picking it apart on gear, any of them care to post pictures of them in their "period gear" and also pictures of their camps, you know, just to show the rest of us how it's done.

[Dick Dastardly]

No sir Delmonico, it makes yer butt look cold.

As far as period correct firearms are concerned, there are those that really care and those that race.  I supply a line of bullet molds that work for both.  But, I can tell you from history, expedience trumps reality.

I shoot a brace of 1860 open tops made by Pietta.  They have the usual brass trigger guards and back straps.  The frame, however, is steel.

I don't feel the least bit compromised by this alloy makeup of my guns.  I simply enjoy shooting them, ringing steel and wearing my 1880 gambler outfit.

Movies should endeavor to persevere as pertains to historical accuracy.  I do enjoy seeing films that depict the myth of the Old West accurately. . . . .

DD-DLoS

[Slowhand Bob]

One that I liked was RIDE WITH THE DEVIL, though it was not perfect, it tried as hard as any and succeeded more than most.  What made it great for me was the smoke and sounds of pistol fire, shore seemed like they used real black powder to me.  I always think of it as the movie Hollyweird wished had never been made, I actually think the movie was intentionally hidden as much as possible.  Outside of SASS no one seems to have heard of it and I have read two magazine interviews of Tobey Maquire and when it came to credits RWTD was not even listed when early tv commercial appearances were?

[Delmonico]

No sir Delmonico, it makes yer butt look cold.


DD-DLoS

Not to worry, it was still in the 90's after midnight that night, see what happens when everyone crashes and leaves me to entertain myself.

[Mako]

Dick,
The reality of it is that almost none of us shoot "authentic" or perfect reproductions.  Unless we are shooting an original we all make some compromises based on the reality of what there is available in either hardware or ammunition.

I like the series, I hope that no one thinks otherwise.  I just hope it remains interesting.  The only thing that I have any complaints with so far is the evident lack of expertise by the props and firearms guys.  Not because of what they field in the series, but rather based on their interviews where AMC tries to establish their expertise.

We all needed something to talk about, if you look at how little discussion has taken place on every forum on this site in the last week or so I felt like it was worth starting a topic we could discuss and perhaps learn a few things.  I think it has been successful, how about you?

~Mako

[bowiemaker]

The problem is that this type of show appeals mostly to people who are interested in the period and are somewhat knowledgeable. They are the ones who are going to spot inaccuracies.

It's the same with auto racing movies. I am a race car fan and I have yet to see a realistic racing movie. The hero is always a lap behind and then he finds that magic gear that lets him lap the field in one lap and win the race. It's insulting to race fans and non-race fans didn't come to see the movie anyway.

[Dick Dastardly]

As Shindler said, "It's all about the presentation".  We shoot a myth, but it's supposed to be based on reality.  Movies and video purporting to be "authentic" need to make a real effort to present that as best they can.  That includes hiring qualified people to choose the props.

At the SASS firing line, I expect a modicum of reality.  It's a good part of the fun in our discipline.  Perhaps that's why I'm resisting the "Wild Bunch" matches.  Pistols that spray brass and don't flame or smoke just don't seem right.  Maybe a broom handle Mauser would ease my pain???

DD-DLoS

[w44wcf]

Mako,
Great post!  Darn if I didn't miss seeing the movie. Drats. I'll have to log it into my calendar so I don't miss it the next time.

Perhaps these are the type of blanks used in the 66's.......
Currently  for sale on Gunbroker....

Seven different movie blanks made for Henry and 1866 Winchesters that were converted to center fire for use in movies. Made by Stembridge Gun Rentals, the seven have various charges and colored wads to meet cinema requirements. Included will be copies of the seven boxes from which the cartridges were extracted with the specifics on each of the seven cartridges.



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=259640747

w44wcf

[Delmonico]

If anyone thinks that folks who know the nit picking details of the old west are the only ones who watch these movies and TV shows you are just kidding yourself.  The majority of folks who ask me if I watch this or that movie about the west wouldn't know there was a big problem if they used Ruger Vaqeros and 94 Winny 30-30's.  We are in a small minority.  If that ever changes to where we are the only ones watching them they will be gone, not enough interest.

Who knows, maybe these "experts" got to be experts hanging around CAS Shoots.

[The Elderly Kid]

Film and television are all about visuals, and there is a color-coded visual shorthand for historical periods. Everybody sees the 19th century in terms of brown and brass - brown leather and wood, brass hardware. Look at all the brown wood and shiny brass on 19th century ships and trains. Go into a Western saloon and what do you see? A gleaming brown bar, shiny brass spitoons, footrails and lamps. Even the modern steampunk craze features lots of machinery with big, clunky brass gears and brass-framed goggles. So filmmakers are naturally drawn to brass-framed pistols, Henrys and '66 Winchesters. They just look period. Another factor is the spaghetti westerns of the 60s. For budget reasons, they used the Dakotas of that era with their brass backstraps and the lever actions were always the .38 '66 repros made in Italy at that time. Now the look is inseperable from most peoples' image of that time.
By contrast, bright steel, chrome, aluminum and black are signatures of the 20th century. Think the classic chrome-studded black leather motorcycle jacket. It's all about the visuals.

[Delmonico]

Film and television are all about visuals, and there is a color-coded visual shorthand for historical periods. Everybody sees the 19th century in terms of brown and brass - brown leather and wood, brass hardware. Look at all the brown wood and shiny brass on 19th century ships and trains. Go into a Western saloon and what do you see? A gleaming brown bar, shiny brass spitoons, footrails and lamps. Even the modern steampunk craze features lots of machinery with big, clunky brass gears and brass-framed goggles. So filmmakers are naturally drawn to brass-framed pistols, Henrys and '66 Winchesters. They just look period. Another factor is the spaghetti westerns of the 60s. For budget reasons, they used the Dakotas of that era with their brass backstraps and the lever actions were always the .38 '66 repros made in Italy at that time. Now the look is inseperable from most peoples' image of that time.
By contrast, bright steel, chrome, aluminum and black are signatures of the 20th century. Think the classic chrome-studded black leather motorcycle jacket. It's all about the visuals.

That's one of the most sensible things that has been said in this thread.  Bottom line, get as many to watch it as you can then you make money.  And they want to make money, that's the reason most of us go to work anyway.

I still find it funny that folks will want the movies to be as period correct as possible but yet there own delving into the Old West are far from it.  You notice none have posted pictures of them and their camps for us to critique. 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well said, Del!

After missing the pilot to this "Hell on Wheels" but having the ability (thanks, Direct TV) to see AMCHD On Demand, I went back to see what I missed.  They don't yet have it "On Demand" yet, but they give the confuser site where it CAN be seen.  What they DO have are 3 "short" featurettes, one about the weapons used on the film.  Upon watching this, I almost gagged.  This so-called Expert is standing there talking about all the research he did to make sure everything was authentic and accurate.  He went on - while holding a brass-framed (not just the grip) 1860 Army 44 (probably the Pietta, I think) modern revolver - and talking about the 44 Griswold (what happened to Gunnison, anyway?) that was the big-bore magnum of its day that the Confederates used during the (un) Civil War.  And that over 100,000 were made and used!

Later, the prop master is shown holding what looked like a Dragoon made with a brass frame, but even slowing down to pause, you can't see it well - it almost looks as if it has the free-hanging lever like a Walker. 

I can't in ANY way consider myself an expert, but I almost gagged.  I also couldn't, in ANY way call myself an expert and brag of my research, while holding a fantasy gun that never existed!  I admit that the guns that are fantasy-made look cool (ie: brass-framed Remington & Colt's guns) but let's call 'em like they were.

I will watch the pilot and probably the series, but as entertainment only.  My friend who DID see it said it was pretty good and entertaining, but he couldn't figure how it could last very long as a series due to the material.   Oh, well.  Authentic or not, it's nice to be entertained.  I have the ability to watch without shouting at the screen!

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I still find it funny that folks will want the movies to be as period correct as possible but yet there own delving into the Old West are far from it.  You notice none have posted pictures of them and their camps for us to critique. 

Give me the budget of a prop master and then check out my camp. 

[Mako]

Steel Horse,
It's always interesting when iconic movies come along and set the theme and feel for almost every movie that follows them in a certain genre.   We can look back at films such as The Great Train Robbery, all of John Ford's films, The Alamo, Sergio Leone's spaghetti westerns, Psycho, The Graduate, Blade Runner, Star Wars, the Indiana Jones movies and on and on it goes.  And with subsequent films they use the framework and expected concepts set by the genre setting precursors.  One such genre movie was Predator which created a completely new weapon that no one had ever seen.

Enter the  Man Portable Mini-Gun.  In late 1985 my friend's group was approached by Stembridge which remains the largest firearms prop house in Hollywood, It goes all of the way back to the beginning of the "talkies."  They are still the producers of the majority of the gun blanks that are not the 5-in-1 style.  If you have a box of movie blanks it probably says Stembridge on the box.  They were filming Predator and they needed a weapon to be carried by Jesse Ventura.  They had conceptualized some sort of flame thrower, but they wanted something that had a "Shock and Awe" feel to it.  At the second meeting the special effects coordinator and the Stembridge representatives weren't impressed enough with the 1950's vintage flame thrower they were shown, when one of the guys in the consulting group quipped "it was too bad they couldn't have him carry a minigun."  

The group had acquired a "6-Pack" which is a 5.56 caliber G.E. Minigun (actually called a microgun because of the caliber) originally designed for light observation aircraft use and also had the semi portable "system" that  allowed it to be used on small vehicles like Jeeps and light trucks.  The Air Force had evaluated it as a perimeter defense weapon to be used by Securtity Police teams and actually had a "portable" version that had a 30 lb, weapon and then all of the feed mechanisms and power supplies which brought it up to over 80 lbs. empty.  They figured a way to add the grips and harness, added a back pack with very limited capacity and ran an extension cord down the leg of the actor using it.  Thus was born the iconic MANPIG, we all know what it is when we see it and it is de rigueur now for movies like the Terminator series, etc.  After they filmed in 1986 I had to listen for almost a year of Tommy recounting how cool it was until the movie finally debuted .  The MANPIG is one of those improbable, but not "impossible" weapons especially with the introduction of Li-Poly batteries.

It will be interesting if this series changes the "expected" weapons to depict the era at the close of the War Between the States.  I will expect even among CAS shooters for there to be a spike in "Griswolds" being used.  The point to all of this is that films and TV drive what most people think of eras, fashion, societal norms, equipment, technology and firearms.  It's a shame that it couldn't be a bit more realistic, it doesn't cost anymore, the resources are there.  Just as Stembridge went to outside consultants in '85 most good productions now pay a consultant for a wardrobe and equipment review because they want to play up the "fact" they are adhering to historical correctness at least in the props.

It is just a TV series, but for a very, very, very small fraction of the production cost they could have had a guiding document delivered that would help them with some of the equipment.  Then they can add all of the exotic weapons like the blunderbuss, double barreled pistols, the sawed off SXS, etc. and it becomes the seasoning instead of the base for the show.

I just hope they keep the concept fresh and don't borrow too much from the style, conditions and plot thread created in the series Deadwood. Deadwood is a genre series and may drive a lot of the look and feel for Hell on Wheels.

I'm looking forward to the coming episodes.

Regards,
Mako