Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels"

[Mako]

How many of you watched the pilot for the new series "Hell on Wheels" on AMC last night?  I always watch any Western with an eye towards their attempt at authenticity as much as anything else, but since this is the time period in which my CAS alias is placed I have an extra measure of interest.

There is definitely an attempt (and I appreciate it) to make the weapons period correct and even interesting by using ones not commonly seen.  But, as we see in all shows and movies they take liberties that no one but us would care about.  One of the biggest anachronisms are the overuse of 1866 Yellowboys.   They depict them being used in 1865, but even if we grace them with a few years from the opening date (1865)  flashed on the screen and acknowledge the construction stretched until 1869 they should have used Henry rifles instead of only using '66s.

I watched a clip from the AMC.com site about the weapons being used and it appears the prop masters aren't as knowledgeable as you would expect them to be.  

This is the clip:

http://www.amctv.com/hell-on-wheels/videos/inside-hell-on-wheels-guns

The primary Armourer Brian Kent starts talking about the 1880s (maybe he simply misspoke) then later the Property Master for the show (Ken Willis) pulls out a pistol carried by Cullen and calls it a Griswold, but it is obviously a typical Pietta  "Kludge" gun with an 8" 1860 or 1861 style barrel on a brass frame. They could have easily gotten a truer Pietta reproduction of a Griswold & Gunnison from and easy source like Cabelas (they are cheep too...)  http://www.cabelas.com/pistols-pietta-griswold-gunnison-36-caliber-revolver.shtml  Look at the muzzle and chamber holes on the pistols he is pointing below they are obviously .44 caliber instead of the .36 caliber G&G revolver.






They use several brass framed "1860 Army models," but with Navy length grips carried by several characters.




This is typical of western films that want to give it an older "feel," they think if they throw in guns with brass frames it makes it seem more "cap and ball period."  The reality is that there weren't that many brass (actually bronze) frames revolvers.  

Some people might suggest that they use brass frame pistols to save money, I have a friend who is a consultant with a prop company in Hollywood and he woul d laugh if you told him that.  The difference between Pietta brass and steel frame pistols is nothing in their scheme of things.   I had this discussion with him once after the movies "Open Range" and the miniseries "Broken Trail".  I noted they had Thomas Church using a '66 carbine in "Broken Trail" and he mentioned that directors loved the brass because it set a time period feel.  The use of brass gives it a flavor, it has nothing to do with cost.

Ken Willis (property master for Hell on Wheels) also says it was a tough era to film for because all of the guns they used were "black powder" except for the 1866s which were the only cartridge guns they used.  He is categorizing C&B pistols and any front loaders as BP guns and the '66s as cartridge guns, an obvious misstatement which shows they really don't have the level of expertise necessary to faithfully reproduce the time period.   They also need more smoke (especially from the rifles) for all of the guns. They should have just used more 1851s, 1860s, Henrys and Spencers with the odd Griswold and the other guns like the pepperbox, etc. thrown in for the feel.  Or they could use percussion pistols converted to cartridges  (and in some cases disguised) like they did for "The Outlaw Josie Wales":

This is one of Josie Wales' 1847s modified to shoot cartridges for the shooting scenes:


That makes the reloading simpler for a movie or a series like this.  Of course they could pay some of us to be on the sets and reload for them...  

Ted Levine who plays the construction boss with the missing hand (Daniel Johnson) identifies a holstered pistol carried by "Cullen Bohannon" as a "Griswold" which we assume means a Griswold and Gunnison revolver.   He must have had X-Ray vision to be able to identify a holstered pistol as a Griswold, but then that helps identify the story line since it identifies Cullen as a Confederate vet, so I forgive that bit of cinematography license.

Interestingly enough the pneumatic gun used from Cullen's perspective in shooting the soldier in the confessional was a fair representation of a Griswold (and Gunnison).  If you look at the clip you will see them testing the prop gun shooting a "blood pellet".  The cylinder is weird,  it has been turned down exposing the chambers on the rear of the cylinder, there is also a bright rub mark on the cylinder where it looks like the frame wasn't relieved enough to clear it.  This is obliviously a heavily reworked gun and the frame has some strange side plate screws probably exposing the pneumatic inner workings.



But if you stop the clip showing the gun from the soldier's perspective being shot the pistol is obviously a different pistol the gun is heavily shadowed and the clip makes it hard to tell if it is just a light band on a round barrel or a flat.  The scene showing the muzzle flash looking back at Cullen is a separate take and it may be his '60 barreled kludge pistol.  

Since these scenes are composites of many different angles it could be three pistols in the one scene shooting the soldier. There appears to be three pistols;  the Pneumatic pistol to make the bullet hole in his head shown above,  a pistol to show a "flash" from Cullen's perspective


and another pistol to show the muzzle flash from the soldier's perspective.


Much like several of the recent movies beginning about the time of Josie Wales there has been an interest in more authenticity with the firearms.  I applaud that and it makes it much more interesting.

Regards,
Mako

[joec]

I actually enjoyed the show but of much rather seen it on say HBO or some other channel without all the commercial interruptions. I saw nothing that would recognize that might have been non period correct really. I will be recording the series this season and then will make a final decision as to if I want to continue. These type of planned long running series tend to all start a bit slow usually getting better by the end of the first season or early in the second.

[Abilene]

Well, I liked it and since they aren't using SAA's and '92's it's close enough for me 

Today I just watched an old (1964) movie "Invitation to a Gunfighter" with Yul Brynner and George Segal.  It took place immediately following the Civil War, and they actually used cap'n'ball pistols which was cool, but carried in buscadero rigs 

[rbertalotto]

Mako,
Fantastic post! Thanks.......I love trying to figure out what type of firearms are being used in just about any western, war flick or cop show.

Your post was most enjoyable.

I hope you keep it going throughout the series.

THANKS!

[joec]

Mako,
Fantastic post! Thanks.......I love trying to figure out what type of firearms are being used in just about any western, war flick or cop show.

Your post was most enjoyable.

I hope you keep it going throughout the series.

THANKS!

If you don't know about this site is a reservoir of gun information on most movies made as well as TV shows.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Main_Page

[Junkman]

Mako,

Thanks for that post. It was most informative.

[rbertalotto]

Thanks Joec.............

[Montana Slim]

Standard fare....brass framed 1860 Colt.

Slim

[Mako]

Standard fare....brass framed 1860 Colt.

Slim

Hey Slim,
I'm not sure what you mean by "standard fare."  Can you elaborate?

Thanks,
Mako

[Lefty Dude]

Standard fare....brass framed 1860 Colt.

Slim

Huh ? What is it you speak ?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Lefty and any others puzzled by Slim's statement: (and forgive me, Slim Monty fer trying to put out an explanation of YOUR comment)

Standard fare....brass framed 1860 Colt.

Slim

This translates to:  typical Hollyweird; since there were NO brass-framed 1860 Model Colt's pistols, EVER, and looking at all that Mako posted on authenticity of their weapons in the v a s t majority of their products, they shoot for the effect, not anywhere close to reality.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Personally, I've pretty much given up hope about seeing any truly authentic films out of Hollyweird.  They (H-W) certainly would point out that they make movies to entertain, NOT teach history.  One notable exception you MAY see (if an agent or studio picks it up) is called "Kansas Moon: the Last Hunt."  It was filmed entirely on location (Kansas) and uses totally authentic weapons, clothing, and gear.  The Indians are Native Americans, the horses are real, and no animals were injured making the film.


Seriously, it WILL be an entertaining, historically accurate film.  I hope it gets "picked up" so we all can see it.  Bill Proctor wrote, planned, filmed, financed, and directed the film.  Here's a clip from Bill's website, where you can see some (admittedly crude and un-"polished") pre-production stills and clips.  Bill is a good friend who posts here on CAS City ... when he has time.

http://www.perfecthatproductions.com/

Enjoy.  The film is made up of non-paid volunteers, and the ONLY "pro" is Bill himself (he has some professional experience,) and this is his first ever film. 

Enjoy!  Not only are they using real antiques (sometimes) and faithful reproductions (the REST of the time) but some of the shots are REAL rounds and ALL of the shots use real Black Powder!

[Mako]

Abilene,
I heartily agree with you about their attempt at the authentic.  At least they are using guns that have the appearance of being period correct.  As I said I can even forgive the overuse of the '66 rifles since they didn't use anachronistic models like the '92 and '73.  I just don't know why they can't hire real experts, they are out there.  I have a friend who has been doing this with a group that used to be part of the armory at MGM before they sold off their weapons in the late '70s and thy strive for the authentic with all Westerns, Military and Police films.

That group finds consultants that are actually period experts and they make a presentation that convinces the director to use the correct weapons, clothing and equipment.  It doesn't cost any more than what they spent on the guys they have now.  It would be easy to provide Cullen with a truer G&G reproduction and it would actually fit the story better since he is supposed to have a unique pistol.  Now it seems everyone and their dog on the series is shooting a revolver like Cullen's  if the clips they provided on their web page are any indication.  Henry rifles are actually more noticeable than the '66s, they have a certain line about them that would make even the uninitiated take notice.  '51s and '60s are plentiful and would keep Cullen's Confederate pistol a constant reminder of his background and they could easily use it again in their story lines.  Now it just looks like the rest.

The "Armourer" and the "Prop Master" remind me of so many other "experts" on all things Western.  They wear boots (sometimes) and sometimes even the correct hat (rarely), so they are deemed experts by the unknowing.  Eastwood uses my friend's consulting group in his movies, that's why you see Spencers, Starr revolvers, Schofields, Remington's and '60s.  In "Pale Rider" the entire group of regulators carried 1860s.  The Preacher had the one iconic scene where he reloaded the Remington from cylinders on his belt.  Actually possible, even though probably not very probable.  That's the magic of movies, making the improbable happen, otherwise it is mundane.  They still have the director (Eastwood in his case) making decisions because they need the extraordinary, but they temper it with reality.

"The Outlaw Josie Wales" had a lot of anachronisms, but they are forgivable sort of like this new series, they were at least trying.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36337.msg465437.html#msg465437

That movie had a Gatling gun from the wrong period, 1873 Trap Doors masquerading as 1855s, 1861s and Enfields, cartridge conversion pistols being used in 1865, etc.  But, they tried to make the close ups of Josie's 1847s, 1860 and 1849 in the shoulder holster as authentic as possible by using Uberti percussion pistols.  Some of the guns were modified to allow cartridges like the '47 in the picture above while trying to disguise what they were.  Others used by the supporting characters they weren't as picky about.  After that movie Eastwood got more interested in keeping it even more authentic and he sought out true experts.  It shows in his later movies.

In the new series wouldn't it be even better if they had a sprinkling of '61 Springfields, Sharps, Spencers, '51 Colts, and 1860s?  I mean seriously, even their attempt to use a Remington they spoiled by using a brass framed Pietta "fanatasy gun."

This is Daniel Johnson pointing his "Remington" at Cullen under the table.



This reminds me of so many military movies where they latch onto a phrase or word and then use it "ad nauseam."  They just don't realize like anything a little sometimes goes a long way.  Subtlety is a concept lost to today's writers, and they have forgotten how powerful it actually is.

Subtle doesn't apply to fire and smoke... They have watered it down so much it has the opposite affect.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Steel Horse,
Maybe you're right about Slim's comment, I just don't consider those "60s" standard in anyone's book.  Brass frames, Navy grips; neither are standard and one is a total fantasy.  Now if he meant that was to be expected from Hollywood or the production groups that typically work out of Canada then I agree.

I looked at the clips on the link you provided.  My comment is directed to the "gunfight" clip. The shots were "wimpy" and no smoke to speak of.  That is always a gripe I have about modern films and shows.  SERIOUSLY!! Smoke the place up!

I mean look at what happens at matches, people gravitate to where the Smoke is billowing, it is different , it grabs their attention!  If they used  charges intended to shoot fire and smoke it would captivate everyone.  I know, I see it all of the time. Now, I understand you can't shoot 22 grains of FFFg at an actor in a confessional 8 inches from his face, but in outside scenes or in scenes with separation between the actors, let that fire belch and the smoke fill the set. The excuse that it would interfere with a second shot of the same scene has no merit because they always reposition the actors for a re-shoot and usually re-load. There is plenty of time for the haze to clear.

In the coming episode they have a new character called the "Swede" showing up to carry out the railroad's "justice."  He carries a sawed of double gun he calls "Beauty," can you imagine a load of 80 grains of Fg billowing out of those barrels?  If you showed a director that they would want more of it.  They would demand it!

I have a local pardner who used to work in a Western steak house while going to college.  They had staged gun fights in the dining area using 1851s with BP and capped with vaseline.  The vaseline just vaporized and there was fire and smoke 'a plenty, the patrons loved it.

All I'm saying is the world needs MORE SMOKE!!

Regards,
Mako

[GunClick Rick]

I get the biggest kick leaning things this way,great discussion and info,the Griswold sure looked alot like a 60.At least the Ken the prop guy had a buffalo hair holster hanging behind him with fringe,i'll give him kudos for that~~

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Steel Horse,
Maybe you're right about Slim's comment, I just don't consider those "60s" standard in anyone's book.  Brass frames, Navy grips; neither are standard and one is a total fantasy.  Now if he meant that was to be expected from Hollywood or the production groups that typically work out of Canada then I agree.

I looked at the clips on the link you provided.  My comment is directed to the "gunfight" clip. The shots were "wimpy" and no smoke to speak of.  That is always a gripe I have about modern films and shows.  SERIOUSLY!! Smoke the place up!

Regards,
Mako

Howdy!

Mako, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I was trying to be.  Again, I'm trying to answer about someone else's post and I shouldn't.  I do think that what Slim said about60s & standard fare is what you are saying.  It's typical of Hollyweird to screw it up.  Like you said, they latch on to one tiny detail, then run it into the ground.  Navy-gripped, brass framed 1860s certainly WEREN'T standard fare.  They simply didn't exist, and the real 1860s with Navy grips were definitely NOT common.  There were a few, in fact the very first one (prototype) was, but not many more and I'm pretty sure the ones that DID have the short grip were special order.

As to the wimpy loads in the movie, I hear you.  And Bill knows this as well - and in post production editing and such (that he isn't showing publicly) the film will look and sound right - at least, to our perceptions.  Bill is strictly a BP shooter and knows of the real glory that comes from shooting BP guns that belch fire, have loud BOOMS, and smoke up the immediate area!  In one scene that I don't think is on his links to the movie, my bud Dave shoots my other bud Bart.  The distance was about 8 feet and it set Bart's vest alight!  Burned a hole right through and Bart said it hurt a bit!  But in the recording (original) it actually sounds like a 22 and not the 30 grs. of 3F that Dave actually shot at him!  I know that Bill has added sound but I don't know about the smoke.  I know that they all commented that from outside the enclosed area where the scene was shot it looked like a 3-alarm fire had started in there!  It smoked 'em all out!  LoL!

[GunClick Rick]

Is it true that brass or whatever was easir to get than steel at the time and that's why they had the Griswolds?

[Junkman]

True, and also easier to machine.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

As Junkman said, true.  The South had a supply problem about getting steel.  There were several companies that made brass-(bronze)framed guns that look much like the 1851 Colt, only with a round barrel.  They used the steel they could get for the barrels, but the frames were made of brass or iron.

Griswold & Gunnison made a 36 cal. gun like I described. 

Leech & Rigdon made a similar revolver, except their barrels AND frames were made of iron.  They only made about 1500 guns before the Union Army chased them away and out of business in 1863.  These iron guns also had "issues" and, well, they didn't work out well.

One of these companies also attempted to make a Dragoon copy in 44 cal., but I don't think they were put into production.  They also might have had a brass frame, but I can't find any reference to them right now.

You can read about most of the principle revolvers used by the South here:  http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/revolvers.htm

[Mako]

Is it true that brass or whatever was easir to get than steel at the time and that's why they had the Griswolds?

Rick,
It was primarily a supply issue.  Even though the South had iron deposits such as the ones in Tannehill, Alabama they couldn't begin to supply the needs of the Confederacy.  They used the iron they produced (and a lot was smuggled in from England) to produce items like field guns, etc.  They used any and every material they could scrounge.  People often recount the scrap drives of the South and how that churches donated their bells to be used in the production of firearms including the Griswold and Gunnison revolvers.  This is from Dennis Adler's book Guns of the Civil War:




note the section in the high lighted box.

Steel Horse I don't want to appear contrary, but the Leech and Rigdons were actually well built and the early ones had very good materials on par with earlier 1851 Colts.  I know what it says on that site you pointed us to, but the experts who have actually evaluated the guns and historians agree the Leech & Rigdons were well built and used decent materials.  They didn't have the new "Silver Spring Steel" (just a trade name) Colt's had beginning in 1859 in any quantity.  There were some higher quality steels being brought in by blockade runners.  

There was an attempt about 40 years ago by firearms experts and research historians to determine where the smuggled "steels" and better refined iron of the war had been used.  One of the users was identified as Leech and Rigdon.  Some of it was done by tracing manifests, though much of it was either a concoction to hide the source in the case the shipment was captured on the ship, or lost as it was distributed to the arsenals and armories.  They did the final tracing through material analysis and they can even tell you the refineries the materials came from.

You have to remember Charles Rigdon was involved in several different operations including armories they built to produce revolvers during the war.

These were the finer revolvers, note the fit and finish:



These are later revolvers from the Rigdon and Ansley Armory:



Leech and Rigdon made a lot of articles for the Confederacy, not just pistols.

Regards,
Mako

[panhead pete]

I am waiting to hear from the clothing experts as well.  I have made quite a few of my own Old West and Civil War clothes.   They have done a decent job with the clothing. Not great, but decent

I agree that they (as usual) trusted "experts" to do this, and the armorers probably used what ever they had available instead of doing the RIGHT thing and procuring the correct arms.  I am certain they told the producers, "No one will know the difference"!   Of course 95% of the viewers will probably not.  At least they are not wearing Buscadero rigs and  I especially liked the Soiled Dove with green teeth who confronted the preacher.  Now THAT was authentic.  So they are at least making an effort.  The fact that they mentioned a Griswold in the first place shows some effort to writing something better than say a Silverado. 

Regards,

PhP