Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels"

[Don Nix]

Well, I'll throw in a picture or two of my "camp" but the clothes we wear probably wont come up the standards of the experts since its just our every day wear and not a hat by somebody or shirt by someone else,or a threebutton zip up left hand featherduster from somebodies book.
Just pics of our cow camp and grand son in his new soogans.  

[Delmonico]

As campaigners and cowboys, we don't carry much.

Cotton drill ground cloth, painted with a mixture of black oil paint & Boiled linseed oil
Confederate states/civilian blanket, (From Wambaugh & White Sutlery). As seen in Echoes of Glory.
1860-1885 Glasses wil 1860's case. Sears catalogue of 1885 Procured from Regimental Quartermaster.
Holsters for 51 Navy conversions reproduced from Packing Iron.
Home made Tobbaco pouch with deerskin lining, hemp drawstring Echoes of Glory, Internet samplings.
Mosby style hat by Tim Bender, One of the best hatters in the country.
Tin cup by Village tinsmith with home fashioned bale.
Tin drum canteen, cork with hemp cord.  Village tinsmith. Echoes of Glory.
Haversack, Not shown Used now for carrying empty brass. (A Confederate sketchbook).

That was how we camped at the 150th Manassas. 

not shown,
Brogans, saddle, Mule ear boots, Uberti 1860 Henry, Pleated shirt with hand worked button holes.  (Thoughts on men's shirts1750-1900). 

Well my current camp is:
A saddle for my head, a blanket for the dew, a small fry pan and a coffee pot too.

With a bigger budget, I would get a mule to carry the saddle. 

Yep, I somehow became the camp cook and life has not been as simple since.     Funny how those who don't camp miss out on a lot of the fun, I'd hate to be so concerned about shooting fast I couldn't stop and smell the roses.  You fellows would be welcome in my camp anytime, we could sit and pick our camps apart, in a fun and friendly manner of course. 

[Delmonico]

Well, I'll throw in a picture or two of my "camp" but the clothes e wear probably wont cone up th standards of the experts since its ijust our every day wear and not a hat by sombody or shirt by someone else,or a threebutton zip up left hand featherduster from somebodies book.
Just pics of our cow camp and grand son in his new soogans.  

Looks far more "cowboy" than a lot of stuff I see.  

[Mako]

Del,
I hate to be a stick in the mud but this is getting way off topic.  This thread is titled "Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels" and we are discussing firearms.  We are actually specifically discussing firearms that use black powder as the propellant because after all this is The Darksider's Den

There are other forums in the hall that are better suited to discussing the accoutrements of a well provisioned 19th century camp, clothing, cook ware, biscuits, etc.; but this one specifically states it is for discussing Black Powder.  This is the forum description:

The Darksider's Den
Welcome to the chamber for discussing all aspects of the use of Black Powder and its substitutes in CAS. Reloading, guns and, shooting techniques...if it's about makin' smoke we talk about it here!

A little bit of side bar discussion is to be expected and actually fun, but the thread is getting too long because of tangential discussions. members and guests who are trying to follow it as the show develops are going to have a hard time following it as it wanders through hill and dale.

If you wish to start a thread on your Cosie's Corner & Feed Bag the Cas City Historical Society or another appropriate forum I would be happy to visit and read your comments and observations on the clothing, camp equipment, trains, tools and food.  I promise not to discuss BP firearms other than to mention if someone brings them up that we have a discussion ongoing about those in The Darksider's Den.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's second episode and following that the continued discussions about the firearms they use in the series on this thread.

Thanks and until then,
Mako

[Lefty Dude]

Del,
I hate to be a stick in the mud but this is getting way off topic.  This thread is titled "Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels" and we are discussing firearms.  We are actually specifically discussing firearms that use black powder as the propellant because after all this is The Darksider's Den

There are other forums in the hall that are better suited to discussing the accoutrements of a well provisioned 19th century camp, clothing, cook ware, biscuits, etc.; but this one specifically states it is for discussing Black Powder.  This is the forum description:

The Darksider's Den
Welcome to the chamber for discussing all aspects of the use of Black Powder and its substitutes in CAS. Reloading, guns and, shooting techniques...if it's about makin' smoke we talk about it here!

A little bit of side bar discussion is to be expected and actually fun, but the thread is getting too long because of tangential discussions. members and guests who are trying to follow it as the show develops are going to have a hard time following it as it wanders through hill and dale.

If you wish to start a thread on your Cosie's Corner & Feed Bag the Cas City Historical Society or another appropriate forum I would be happy to visit and read your comments and observations on the clothing, camp equipment, trains, tools and food.  I promise not to discuss BP firearms other than to mention if someone brings them up that we have a discussion ongoing about those in The Darksider's Den.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's second episode and following that the continued discussions about the firearms they use in the series on this thread.

Thanks and until then,
Mako

Thank You, and well stated.

[Delmonico]

As Baxter Black says, whining is the verb.

Seems funny that folks hold a propman on a low budget TV show to a higher standard than themselves just because the TV show previews said they were experts.   

Go ahead and pick and whine and then wonder why there are no Westerns on TV and the movies.  Myself I watch it a time or two and if I don't like it I won't watch it no more. 

Remember there is a group that claims to be the next best thing to a time machine or something like that.

[Mako]

As Baxter Black says, whining is the verb.

Seems funny that folks hold a propman on a low budget TV show to a higher standard than themselves just because the TV show previews said they were experts.   

Go ahead and pick and whine and then wonder why there are no Westerns on TV and the movies.  Myself I watch it a time or two and if I don't like it I won't watch it no more. 

Remember there is a group that claims to be the next best thing to a time machine or something like that.

Del,
Slow down pardner, your description of the people involved in these discussions may be a bit harsh.  People are just talking about BP firearms, that's what we do on this forum.  There really isn't a reason to brand us as "whiners."

I haven't heard whining, at least not about firearms.  I have heard descriptive critique of the firearms on the show and of the people who are actually paid to fill the role of experts in firearms.  We are just having fun talking about what we like to do. 

Most of us are just weekend cowboys, we don't get a check from AMC, but the sad fact is that almost anyone who has posted could probably do a better job and would have a ball doing it.  That was one of the main points I made in the beginning, there are actually qualified people out there and they are not outrageously expensive.

We welcome your or anyone else's input concerning the firearms used on the show; that's what this thread is titled, that's what it was started for and it still remains the subject.

Thanks,
Mako

[panhead pete]

Mr. Nix,

You Appear to have the best camp of them all...

PhP

[panhead pete]

Yep, I somehow became the camp cook and life has not been as simple since.     Funny how those who don't camp miss out on a lot of the fun, I'd hate to be so concerned about shooting fast I couldn't stop and smell the roses.  You fellows would be welcome in my camp anytime, we could sit and pick our camps apart, in a fun and friendly manner of course.

I shoot frontier cartridge duelist.  I am pretty slow, actually.  I am the only guy wearing wool in the summer....I don't know what your problem is, other than reading comprehension.  But, I will leave YOUR SAND BOX TO YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS..

Adios,
PhP

[Fingers McGee]

Yep, I somehow became the camp cook and life has not been as simple since.     Funny how those who don't camp miss out on a lot of the fun, I'd hate to be so concerned about shooting fast I couldn't stop and smell the roses.  You fellows would be welcome in my camp anytime, we could sit and pick our camps apart, in a fun and friendly manner of course.

I shoot frontier cartridge duelist.  I am pretty slow, actually.  I am the only guy wearing wool in the summer....I don't know what your problem is, other than reading comprehension.  But, I will leave YOUR SAND BOX TO YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS..

Adios,
PhP

I generally shoot Frontiersman (although do enjoy FCD on occasion) and also wear wool during the summer.  Before I got into CAS, I did rendezvous and was working on a persona for F&I/Rev war reenacting.  Had period correct camps and wore wool for that too.  Now I just camp out at the Holiday Inn Express after a match.  Much more comfortable than sleeping in a tent.

FM

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well, thanks to AMC repeating the pilot show before the new episode tonight, I have now seen the pilot episode/movie.  I liked it and give it a B for effort.  In the show, the glaring mis-use of non-real guns didn't show up as much.  They did a decent job, IMHO.  (And the language is much nicer than Deadwood, 'tho a bit more geared toward the 21st Century.)

I only saw one obvious 1860 Army and it was shown very quickly and enough in the "shade" or background that I couldn't see an obvious brass frame.

The interesting thing I caught (and commented on to me by St. George) was that they ask you to believe that so many of the perpetrators of the crime which killed the "hero's" wife would all have gathered in one place at the same time.  But that is even possible, I suppose, given that the RR didn't have (according to this) too many places to be where the jobs were.  However, I would never have expected to be on the VERY steep German road to visit the awesome Neuschwanstein castle (built near the turn of the 20th Century by King Ludwig III of Bavaria) and while climbing/walking UP the road and seeing a family friend in a horse cart as he and his wife were going DOWN after seeing the castle!   It sure CAN be a small world!

As Mako pointed out, this post started about inaccurate repros of weapons used in Hollyweird, not the movie itself or the clothing or camp.  I'm not learned enough to comment on many of these other things, anyhoo.  I just know (some) about weapons.

I'll continue to watch the show.

[Marshal Deadwood]

If you rate Hell on Wheels against history, it will come up short.

If you rate it against OTHER TV...it's a good effort and worthwhile entertainment. I actually liked it pretty good. But I was never one to expect a possum to turn into a mink while I was skinnin' it.

MD

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I am anything but an expert on firearms of any period in time.  I do shoot black and only black.  My revolvers are not period correct but they are probably close.  I will also admit to having aging eyes and watch film with less than perfect recall.  Having said that, is my observation correct as follows.

In the church shoots soldier ... barrel appears to be octagon not round?
Next scene where he is standing with revolver at his side ... appears to be 1860 colt army?

If these things are not period correct, that is the fault of the prop folks.  I do think the clothing and dirt live up to expectations at this point.   I have only got to watch the show up to the point where he is put in charge of the cut.  Dang I am looking forward to seeing the full first episode.

[Fingers McGee]

I got to watch it last night when AMC replayed it.  All in all, not bad.  I do wonder how word of the church shooting of a soldier in DC got to end of the tracks so fast - Hmmmmm, maybe a plot twist - the perpetrators of the Meridian incident keeping in touch ??

[Delmonico]

I posted this elsewhere but will here also since I did watch it last night, a quick bunch of flaws seen just watching it:

As for the TV network and their self proclaimed "experts" I must say, one it was much better than sending Little Joe to go fetch the 92 Winny with the forearm removed and the receiver spray painted gold.   The other, coment on that, is it's TV, you can have another pair of those experts free if you just pay shipping and handling.

As for the PC of it, see the UP building started from Omaha, not Council Bluff Iowa, no sense in building a couple miles of track that ended in the bluffs east of town or at the river which would have no bridge for years and was still a ways off from a connection to the east.   

Can't figure out why they were blasting on fairly level ground with no rock. 

Have no idea why the surveyer and his wife were working on that steep hill since they built it on the flat going up creek drainage's in Nebraska, remember it all had to be built on a 1% grade, you went around hills not over them. 

Why neither boss caught that the workers were using pickaxes  on already soft and dug up soil is beyond me, it also appeared they'd dug the grade far below the 1% or less there.

I would like to know how the Congressman got 50,000 acres to speculate on that Durant was able to scare him saying he'd go around it and miss it.

For a moment I thought the Blacks were going to sing Camptown Races and somebody was gonna get whacked with a shovel.

Oh, the term "Hell On Wheels" wasn't used till the winter of 1865-1866 when they were stopped near North Platte Nebraska.

Beyond that, since I don't expect anything like that to be anywhere near historically correct. (Yeah right, folks complain the pilot was slow when it's not PC )  I thought it was one of the best thing I've seen come out on the networks for an awful long time.  But that's like saying one of our locally owned steakhouses that sell prime Nebraska beef is better than McDonalds or Burger King.

Although the "hero's" gun was just a brass framed 51 Navy, the calling it a G&G I thought was a nice touch, yes they were low production but so was the Walker and no one has a problem with Gus's Walker.  Every hero has to have his Excaliber and a plain ol Colt would just be a plain ol Colt.  Yes it would have been nice to unscrew the barrel and turn it round, but it didn't happen.

I left the DVR set up to record the series or at least for now I did.  I'm sure as it goes on I could find a lot more flaws if I took notes, but won't bother, remember I know and travel that route across Nebraska quite often.  I won't mention the ties didn't look like cottonwood to me.

[Mako]

Although the "hero's" gun was just a brass framed 51 Navy, the calling it a G&G I thought was a nice touch, yes they were low production but so was the Walker and no one has a problem with Gus's Walker.  Every hero has to have his Excaliber and a plain ol Colt would just be a plain ol Colt.  Yes it would have been nice to unscrew the barrel and turn it round, but it didn't happen.

Hey Del,
Good to see we are almost back on topic.

Since we are discussing the firearms on this thread I think you might have misspoken.  The revolvers they have Cullen carrying and the prop guys showing are not brass frame '51s, they are brass framed '60s with Navy length brass grips.




If they had used a brass framed '51 that actually would have been closer to the Griswold and Gunnison.

Pietta Brass Frame "1851"


Pietta Griswold and Gunnison


Notice I didn't say "brass frame G&G," the Pietta Griswold & Gunnison is actually a rather faithful reproduction.  It has the right barrel, it's the right caliber, it has the correct cylinder (sans engraving).  In all it is a rather faithful copy.

Here's a couple of real ones:



Except for that "Pietta Flare" they put on all of their Navy size grips I think Pietta NAILED IT. There are some minor differences  such as the grip bottom angle, but all in all a very nice reproduction.

They are CHEAP too, something any prop department would appreciate.

$179.99 at Cabelas!
http://www.cabelas.com/pistols-pietta-griswold-gunnison-36-caliber-revolver.shtml

Instead they went with a Pietta Fantasy Kludge brass frame 8 inch barrel .44 caliber pistol like this


If good Griswold and Gunnison reproductions were hard to come by then we would just say they are doing the best with what they have available at a reasonable cost.  The reality is that they (armorer and prop masters) don't know the difference .  We can tell they don't from the comments they made during the interviews.

It all comes down to having a "guiding document," a good production commissions those guiding documents for all aspects of the period, clothing, hardware, saddles, tack, camp gear, etc.  When it comes to things like a full scale train we might not expect them to have an 1865 vintage steam engine, but when you can buy props like firearms at the prices you can get Piettas then there really isn't a good excuse.  I'd be willing to bet hard money the prop guys didn't have a case of brass frame '60s sitting around, they went out and bought them.  Too bad.

By all accounts in the trade magazines they aren't an underfunded project.  While they don't have the higher profile actors or the budget of Deadwood  they have a much smaller permanent set and camp to deal with.  I just hope the premise of the revenge seeking vet doesn't become the overriding week to week theme of the show and instead becomes the intertwined thread that appears from time to time as the season(s) progress.

So far I like the series and I'm looking forward to tonight's episode to see what new characters and firearms show up.

Until then,
Mako

[Delmonico]

So it looks even closer, still don't see the problem when there are far more historcal facts wrong.

Perhaps I'll start a thread in the Longbranch and we'll see how many flaws we can find in episode 2, I promise I'll give the other "historians" here a chance before I give them all away.

After all, I'm sure all of us here have a base in the history of the time period that goes beyond the guns don't we?

[Mako]

So it looks even closer, still don't see the problem when there are far more historcal facts wrong.

Del, There may be many, many more glaring historical inaccuracies, but this thread deals with "Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels."   Because after all this is The Darksider's Den.

Perhaps I'll start a thread in the Longbranch and we'll see how many flaws we can find in episode 2, I promise I'll give the other "historians" here a chance before I give them all away.

After all, I'm sure all of us here have a base in the history of the time period that goes beyond the guns don't we?

Del that sounds good, I'm looking forward to reading those posts as well.  Have you considered putting that thread in the Cas City Historical Society instead?  This is their charter, "Topics related to the history of the old west; Events, authenticity, characters, firearms, etc.." That sounds like the perfect venue.

Regards,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Del, There may be many, many more glaring historical inaccuracies, but this thread deals with "Black Powder Firearms in the new series "Hell on Wheels."   Because after all this is The Darksider's Den.

Del that sounds good, I'm looking forward to reading those posts as well.  Have you considered putting that thread in the Cas City Historical Society instead?  This is their charter, "Topics related to the history of the old west; Events, authenticity, characters, firearms, etc.." That sounds like the perfect venue.

Regards,
Mako

I agree - NOT in the Longbranch.  But St. George might not be thrilled to have it in the Historical Society ... this actually belongs in a new board;  the Not-Very-Historical Criticism Group!

[Henry4440]

 
This is the clip:

http://www.amctv.com/hell-on-wheels/videos/inside-hell-on-wheels-guns

I always get the following message at the amc website:

The video you are trying to watch cannot be viewed from your current country or location.

So for those outside the U.S. here is another link:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/videos/outdoorlife/guns/rifles/2011/11/firearms-amcs-hell-wheels