Cowboy ammo

[wyattm]

Anyone chrono Winchester 44-40 cowboy ammo thru a 24 1/4 inch repo 73 Winchester.....seems like factory specs thru a 4 inch pistol is pretty good....would they be good enough for hunting out of a 73.....
Thanks.
Wyattm

[w44wcf]

wyattm,
I haven't, but based on the reported velocity in the 4" barrel, i would think it would run somewhere in the vicinity of 950-1000 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.  

Just had a though......checked Mike Venturino's book "Leverguns of The Old West - he tested it in a 24" Marlin Cowboy rifle...
average velocity 966 f.p.s.  By comparison, Mike also tested Black Hills Cowboy ammo and it clocked 1,166 f.p.s. average.

Magtech 44-40 lead bulleted ammo is advertised at 1,180 f.p.s.

Certainly, Winchester Cowboy ammo will harvest game, but if I was limited to factory lead bulleted ammo, I would opt for either the Black Hills or Magtech offerings for their extra punch.

w44wcf    

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
The Black Hills ammo is my pick of the litter .

[Grizzly Adams]

The old Remington 44WCF 200 grain jacketed soft point, or the Winchester 200 grain factory load with the jacketed soft point would be my choice for hunting with the 73.  The Winchester load is advertised at 1190fps, and I suspect the Remington is in the same ball park.

Quick search turned this up:  http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14658_14743_14908_14843

Note advertised velocities for the cowboy stuff.....

[Hangtown Frye]

I wouldn't use the "Cowboy" stuff on anything other than paper targets, or maybe steel targets.  A few years ago some local stray dogs were in slaughtering my chickens and the only thing to hand was my wife's Henry, loaded with said "Cowboy" loads.  I plunked at least 4 solid hits on one big dog (about the size and hair of a Malamute).  The damned thing took off running right PAST me, while I was chunking lead into it.  I could hear the bullets hit, with no noticeable effect (other than to make him yowl a bit).  I saw the same dog a few months later scampering around happily, and I think he still lives in the neighborhood (though he's careful not to come around my place for snacks).  As far as I could tell the bullets didn't even break the skin, as there was no blood trail or anything other than the audible sounds which ensued from each shot.  Not particularly encouraging!

On the other hand, a friend of mine in Texas uses his .44-40's loaded with a full 40 grains of Swiss 3f to hunt feral pigs with on a regular basis... and they are to be considered dangerous game!  He has never had a problem with THOSE rounds, either.  So the panty-waist "Cowboy" loads should be left at home, and either full-house BP loads, or the above-mentioned Remington or Winchester factory ammo (non-"Cowboy") ammo should be used.

Cheers,

Gordon

[w44wcf]

Gordon,
Interesting. What brand of ammunition was it?

The lowest velocity cowboy factory ammunition fired from a rifle will equal the velocity of 44-40 black powder ammunition fired from a revolver...... and who knows how many men met their end from being ventilated from a 44 slug traveling at 950 f.p.s.
So....a dog well hit in the same way with said ammunition would be ventilated fo sure. The bullet would plow right on through.

Now if the ammunition was faulty or if they were reloads with velocties at or below 300 f.p.s. that would really be an issue.

At one time I purchased some 45 Colt ammo in a yellow plastic box that simply stated Cowboy Ammo on it. The cases were Starline and the ammo was definitely loaded by an individual not from any factory.   The only reason I bought it was that it was cheap ($15) and I was planning on reclaiming the components by pulling the bullets.  I found that the powder charge used was less than 50% of what the recommended starting load was for Trail Boss.  I did fire a few just to see if the bullet would even make it out of the barrel, which it did, but impacted way below my 50 yard sight setting. Definitely low powered for sure.

w44wcf

[MJN77]

I wouldn't do it now, but about thirteen years ago when I bought my first Henry rifle I killed three deer with Magtech cowboy .44-40 cartridges. Longest shot was about 50-60 yards, and none of those critters ran more than 10 yards after being hit. Like I said, I use better ammo for hunting now, but factory cowboy loads will bring down a full grown deer with little effort if you do your part. At least that's my experience.

[Joe Lansing]

    I'd prefer a full load of BP giving a MV of 1300fps or the smokeless equivalent. What's a 900fps MV going to give you 50-100yds out?

                                   JL

[w44wcf]

Joe,

1000 f.p.s. muzzle velocity  BC .14 - 100 yard velocity = 883 f.p.s.
  900 f.p.s. muzzle velocity  BC .14 - 100 yard velocity = 812 f.p.s.

Still plenty fast enough to penetrate quite a bit.

w44wcf

[Joe Lansing]

    No offense, but that's the first time I ever heard anyone argue in favor of using a reduced load of a low powered cartridge for deer hunting. Because it can make a "deep" hole may not mean it's adequate for a clean kill. Responsible hunting also demands that we do our part to minimize the suffering of the animal we kill. We also don't want to go too far the other direction in the way of overkill. Ruined meat is a wasted animal.

                                                JL

[w44wcf]

Joe,
Given my druthers, I would also opt for 44-40 black powder cartridges developing 1,300 f.p.s. for deer hunting.
But.....as indicated by MJN77's experience, cowboy factory cartridges can do the job......

w44wcf   

[Joe Lansing]

    Point taken.

           JL

[Hangtown Frye]

W44WCF;

Sorry for the delay in answering your post.

The ammo was some stuff that I purchased a number of years ago in California distributed by one "Miwall Distribution" in Grass Valley, CA.  Not sure of exactly who did the loading.  It's not inaccurate, and it didn't SEEM to be low velocity, but it surely did surprise me to not be totally ventilating those dogs, I can tell you!  I might as well have been shooting a paintball gun at them for all the effect it had.  (And I know I hit, I heard the bullets thump, and the dog yelped)  I would imagine that the velocity was well under 600 fps. and out of a 24" rifle, no less.

Per velocities with BP, my friend in Texas tells me that he's consistently getting 1500 fps from a 30" barreled .44WCF, and 1450 fps or so from a 24" barrel using 40 grains of Swiss 3f and a 240 grain bullet.  I certainly have no reason to disbelieve him, considering the number of pigs he harvests with this load.  Winchester marketed it as a "600 yard rifle", which with that sort of velocity I would expect it to be.

Cheers!

Gordon

[w44wcf]

Hangtown Frye,
Thank you for the update. Since they were apparently custom loaded, it would be hard to say what the velocity was.

Wow! your friend is getting some pretty impressive velocities.  Early in my b.p. loading I did try 40 grs of SWISS 3f and it pushed a 215 gr bullet well over 1,400 f.p.s.  SInce I was shooting them in an original '73 made in 1882, I quit shooting them after a few rounds since I was concerned about the pressure being too high for that vintage rifle......

w44wcf

[Hangtown Frye]

W44WCF;

I would imagine that your good old '73 would have handled those loads just fine, considering it was designed for it, but then I can also understand not wishing to risk your antique!   However I think your findings are pretty close to those of my friend in Texas, so it's a legit finding.  He is of the opinion that Swiss powder is pretty close to the fine US black powders of the 19th Century, and I'm inclined to believe him.  Goex contains way too much graphite for my taste, though it certainly has sufficient boom and smoke to satisfy my desires for such things when shooting!  Sadly it just doesn't have enough ooomph to match the Swiss powders.  (I won't even try the Elephant powder in cartridges!  It's fine for smoothbore muskets, but that's about it!)

The .44-40's that I was shooting weren't exactly custom, as I bought the stuff in a gun store, but I suspect that they've gone out of business considering the poor quality of the loads they were using.  Of course, I could be wrong in that, since there is that weird fashion among SASS-types for ultra-low power loads in just about everything.  Might as well use .450 Webley's, considering all the punch they get (and want) from their loads. 

Thanks for the info you've posted, BTW.  I always enjoy seeing someone having fun with black powder loads, especially in one of my favorite cartridges, the .44WCF! 

Speaking of which, I recently picked up a set of original Winchester tong-tool and mould in .44WCF that I need to try out.  It'll have to wait until January I'm afraid, but still, it will be a hoot to load up some rounds for my Winchester '73 (round-barreled rifle made in 1885) using all original tools and see what they do.

Cheers!

Gordon

[w44wcf]

Hangtown Frye,

Prior to 1894 cartridges used by cowboys were all loaded with black powder. Beginning in late 1894, smokeless powders made their appearance.

I would certainly agree with your friend about Swiss being the closest equivalent we have to the excellent b.p.'s of a century + ago. I had done a bit of research and posted information in this thread a few years back........
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f3ed090e0ef271d9e56e43d2752b86a&topic=13.0

About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to obtain some early W.R.A. CO. 44 W.C.F. cartridges and was able to compare the b.p. contained in those cartridges to the ones we have today.  I dissected the cartridges, annealed the cases, replaced the primers with current ones, placed the powder back into the cases and used bullets from a Lyman 427098 mold (copy of the original bulllet). Lube was SPG.

Long story short, the early b.p. used in those cartridges had the ability, with the 2 lube grooved bullet, to launch many bullets accurately without fouling out the barrel (hard ring of fouling developing at the muzzle and extending back into the barrel).
The only other powder able to do that was SWISS. Cartridges loaded with Goex, Schuetzen and Elephant would foul out the barrel in 12 rounds or less with accuracy degrading rapidly**. By comparison, Swiss would run for 50+ rounds (most fired at one time) with no "foul out" or loss of accuracy.  The current lot of KIK powder appears to have the same ability as Swiss in my limited testing of that powder. More to be done......

My concern with the full load (40 grs by weight) of Swiss 3F is that it produced a velocity that was 10% higher than the original b.p. loading (1,301 f.p.s.) and thus the pressures would be higher than the standard cartridge the '73 was designed for.  I would feel much better about using that load in a reproduction '73 which would be stronger.

These days, 36 grs of Swiss 2F in modern brass replicates the original ballistics and shoots very well. Not much compression is required either.

Nice to hear that you found some original loading tools for your vintage '73.  I have loaded 44 W.C.F. cartridges with the same tools.....pretty neat.....like stepping back in time.....
Based on  my experience, the fouling issue will be the same with the 2 lube grooved bullet that the Winchester mold produces.  If you get the chance to pick up some Swiss 2F or KIK 3F (has about the same ballistic strength as Swiss 2F) that would be a plus.

** (Goex and the other powders work fine with the "big lube" bullet and also the Accurate 43-215C due to their additional lube capacity.)  
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40897.0.html


Have fun!
w44wcf

 

 

[Hangtown Frye]

W44WCF;

I need to get my hands on some of the Swiss 3f, that is for certain.  Right now I have plenty of Goex, but I think I'll save that for the muzzle-loaders for the time being!  Per my friend in Texas (his name is Taylor Anderson, BTW, a gunmaker of some minor note in those parts) he said that the fouling from the Swiss powder and proper lube (something of his own concoction after many years of experimentation) is about the same as using Unique.  I assume that this is much like your own experience, and it makes absolute sense to me, as there were seldom complaints from the field in the period concerning fouling issues unless a LOT of shots had been fired. 

I'll take your advice per loads for my original '73 and go with 36-37 grains.  Makes perfect sense to me, and I don't NEED magnum velocities out of it.  I just want period velocities, as opposed to the miserable excuses we have to put up with these days instead.   

Thanks for the links, and I appreciate the info you're putting out there for us!

Cheers!

Gordon

[w44wcf]

Hangtown Frye,
I would suggest using Swiss 2F since 36 grs gives 1,300 f.p.s.  It's actual grain size is closer to Goex 3F than it is to Goex 2F.
KIK is a lot less expensive and I would suggest using KIK 3F in the same 36 gr dose which does close to 1,300 f.p.s.

w44wcf

[Hangtown Frye]

Thanks for the advice, W44WCF, I'll give it a try!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Cowboy ammo is for Cowboy Action Shooting . The Velocities are lower and it is for Target shooting . If your after Hunting Ammo buy the Winchester or Remington with the JHP . If your not using it for Hunting and your just plunking around the Cowboy ammo will be just fine .