New Reloader Needs Advice on .38-40 Dies

[ntex2000]

Just bought a Hornady single stage reloading kit and will be reloading for my 100+ year old Model 1892 Winchester lever action in .38-40. I've looked at the different brands of dies sold at Midway and am completely unsure about which brand to get.  Saw another post elsewhere in which the poster recommended getting a separate Lee factory crimp die   Am planning to buy Starline brass and .401 Lasercast bullets.

Anyway, I need some good advice on which die set to get.  Would've probably been leaning in favor of the Hornady, but something in their website description for their .38-40 die set just didn't seem right compared to other manufacturers.

Thanks for your help!

[Mako]

ntex2000,
That's the wrong bullet to use with an original .38WCF.  You need a bullet with BP lube.  Buy some 180 gr Big Lubes from Springfield Slim "Mark Whyte":
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

What was wrong with the description on the Hornady website concerning their dies?

Regards,
Mako

[ntex2000]

ntex2000,
That's the wrong bullet to use with an original .38WCF.  You need a bullet with BP lube.  Buy some 180 gr Big Lubes from Springfield Slim "Mark Whyte":
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

What was wrong with the description on the Hornady website concerning their dies?

Regards,
Mako

Sorry, it was both the Midway website for the Hornady dies, plus the Hornady website.  On the Midway website, the first few sentences of the description for the Hornady .38-40 die set states:  "The Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension 3-Die Set is a great die set for the avid reloader. The 3-die set is designed for straight-walled cases....".  Since .38-40 brass has a slight bottle neck I figured this was either a typo or either the term "New Dimensions" in the model name of the Hornady die set really means that this die set is for .38-40 in straight walled brass, which makes no sense.  On the Hornady website, they have .38-40 dies listed under both the sub categories for rifle dies and handgun dies.  The rifle dies page shows two individual dies for the .38-40 while the handgun webpage shows a 3 die set. However, neither webpage includes a narrative description of these dies.  I had all but expected to see a 3 die set listed for both rifle and handgun, or for them to only list it on the handgun webpage since this is generally considered to be a pistol cartridge.

The brand listings for .38-40 on the Midway website are as follows:

Lee Steel 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF ($25.99);
RCBS Cowboy 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF ($54.99);
Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF ($69.99);
RCBS 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF ($66.99);
Redding 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF ($72.99); and
Redding Competition Pro Series Carbide 3-Die Set 38-40 WCF ($119.95).

Price isn't an issue.  I just want to make sure that I get the best dies to create the most accurate cartridges possible.  I'm going to start shooting in my gun club's monthly cowboy action silhouette matches. The bore of this rifle is bright and shiny with well defined lands and grooves.  At my very, very best, I've shot a 1 5/8" group off a bench rest at 100 yards with Ultramax cowboy loads cartridges.

Also, I'll be reloading with modern smokeless powder instead of black powder.

Sorry for the length of this reply...

[ntex2000]

What skills do you possess?

Sorry, I'm new to CAS, so I'm not sure what you mean by skills?

[Old Top]

ntex2000

I beleive what Witch Hunter is asking is have you reloaded before.  If you have not it can be daunting to start.  Your choice of brass is good but my suggestion would be to "slug your barrel to see what size bullet is best, to do that get a lead fishing weight of a little larger then the barrel and using a wood rod tap it through the barrel, then mic it to see what diameter it is, you would want a bullet size larger (example I shoot 44-40 and found that a .428 works the best, can use a .427, or .429).  I beleive the description is incorrect the 38-40 is a rifle and pistol cartridge and needs a three die set, first die deprimes and sizes the cartridge, the second die would bell the cartridge to seat the bullet, the third die seats and crimps the bullet to the cartridge.  My preferance for dies is RCBS but any that you listed should work.  You may wish to purchase a fourth die to put a "factory crimp" on the bullet, Lee is the only one that makes this, to my knowledge.  In loading the 44-40 I find that I need to run it back through the sizing die to have it load in the pistols, I also use a factory crip die.  You will need to lube the brass to be able to reload, and I have found what I like are the molly coated bullet.  This is what works for me your mileage may differ.

Old Top

[Wolfgang]

An appropriate black powder lubed bullet is essential.  Slug the bore, get a bullet a thousands bigger.  I get my bullets from

www.cowboybullets.com          
Desperado Bullets

I purchased another original Winchester '73 this year in .38-40 and all the reloading stuff for it . . . but haven't had the chance to load any yet.  If how to reloading . . . go slow, follow directions, have FUN,....  

ps.  Sarline brass is what I use.  I load with 2f  Goex.  I get it to my door from

http://www.powderinc.com/   Black Powder

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I know there are articles out there on loading the .38-40.  I'm sure Mr. Google can help.  I was able to get my old 1896 vintage SAA going fairly easily.  I was however experienced with .44-40.

I purchased RCBS cowboy dies which work OK.  I got a LEE collet crimp die which I find pretty handy.  RCBS sold me a RCBS .40-180 cowboy mouldbut it was actually a lie as it was the 170 gr bullet for the wunder forty.  After a bit of time it was replaced with the correct mould.  If I had an old rifle with less than pristine bore i would now go to the Big-Lube.  As I load foe a 4 3/4" pistol - no sweat.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy nTex 2000!

I'm a bit curious.  Since you posted here on the Darksider's Den, I or we assume you're talking about using Black Powder.  Right?  If so, the advice others have given about bullets of soft lead and BP-friendly lube are right on the money.  I buy a lot of 44 & 45 Cal. BigLube (tm) boolits (for BP rounds) from Mark Whyte, aka Springfield Slim.  As suggested by Mako, he comes highly recommended.  (Mako provided Mark's web address.)

If NOT planning to use BP, then the Lasercast will do fine with smokeyless powder.  (Many of us here think, however, that the use of this new fangled smokeyless powder is only a passing fad and won't last long.)
   

AS to dies, I personally recommend the Lee die set.  I have and use all these dies: Dillon, RCBS, Hornady, Lyman, and yes, Lee.  While I'm not a big fan of SOME Lee products, their dies (and some other tools & moulds) are first rate and the best bargain for dies out there.  I also use Lee Factory crimp dies on ALL my loading, no matter which dies I'm using at the time.  Your Winchester '92 should shoot damn well ... after you find what size bullet to use.  It may turn out to be the .429" that is the modern standard, but since it is an older '92, it COULD be .427" or several other sizes.  As Old Top and Wolfgang mentioned, "slugging" the bore will find out what you need to use.  If you are inexperienced as you say, having a reputable gunsmith do the "slug job" might be a good idea.  It is a pretty simple procedure, actually ... but the measuring can be tricky.  But, like Old Top suggested, it can be pretty simple.  I believe it'll actually harder to find the right size lead sinker than it will be to DO the job!.  Also, Midway sells a bore-slugging kit, but I fergit who makes it.  It comes with good instructions and enough proper-sized lead slugs to do several guns - about 5 if I recall.  Price WAS (can't say fer sure NOW) around $30 + S&H.

Have fun!  My good pard Jed Cooper let me shoot his old '92 in 38-40 (38 WCF) and I loved it.  It shot like a laser beam!  BANG-Ziiiip-Clang!

[Mako]

Since .38-40 brass has a slight bottle neck I figured this was either a typo or either the term "New Dimensions" in the model name of the Hornady die set really means that this die set is for .38-40 in straight walled brass..

I see what you mean... But, the .38WCF is not a slight bottle neck:



It sounds like you need some "hands on" help.  Which club are you with?  I know someone in almost every club in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and I'm sure I can rustle up someone to show you how to load a .38WCF.  Let me know which one and I'll contact the best member for the job and I'll send you their contact info.

Which variant of the '92 is your rifle?  You need to have it looked at by someone who collects them before you start shooting it at matches. Anything that is over a hundred years old needs to be looked at anyway before you consider shooting smokeless.  You are in luck again, I have a friend in Dallas who has been an officer in the Texas Gun Collectors Association and he was also the V.P. or something of the National  Winchester Collectors Association a few years back. His passion is '92s and he would probably pay you to inspect it.   Send me a P.M. and I'll put you in contact with him as well.

Regards,
Mako

[ntex2000]

Howdy nTex 2000!

I'm a bit curious.  Since you posted here on the Darksider's Den, I or we assume you're talking about using Black Powder.  Right?  If so, the advice others have given about bullets of soft lead and BP-friendly lube are right on the money.  I buy a lot of 44 & 45 Cal. BigLube (tm) boolits (for BP rounds) from Mark Whyte, aka Springfield Slim.  As suggested by Mako, he comes highly recommended.  (Mako provided Mark's web address.)

If NOT planning to use BP, then the Lasercast will do fine with smokeyless powder.  (Many of us here think, however, that the use of this new fangled smokeyless powder is only a passing fad and won't last long.)

I posted here because it was the only forum I saw that mentioned reloading. Didn't realize at the time that it was centered on black powder.  I was planning on using smokeless powder instead of black powder.  My understanding has been that black powder is corrosive and I didn't want to take the chance of harming my pristine bore.  I've also heard that some of the smokeless powders will give you greater accuracy than BP.  So...I guess I could also use some advice from y'all on the virtues of black powder versus smokeless powder.

[Mako]

I posted here because it was the only forum I saw that mentioned reloading. Didn't realize at the time that it was centered on black powder.  I was planning on using smokeless powder instead of black powder.  My understanding has been that black powder is corrosive and I didn't want to take the chance of harming my pristine bore.  I've also heard that some of the smokeless powders will give you greater accuracy than BP.  So...I guess I could also use some advice from y'all on the virtues of black powder versus smokeless powder.

ntex2000,
No problems, the guys I'll refer you to do smokeless.  It would be better to handle your needs in person.  Which club are you with?

Regards,
Mako

[ntex2000]

ntex2000,
No problems, the guys I'll refer you to do smokeless.  It would be better to handle your needs in person.  Which club are you with?

Regards,
Mako

My club is Haltom City.  Actually just joined this month so I've not had a chance yet to shoot in a silhouette match.  My Winchester 92 is the sporting rifle model with the 24" barrel.  I've had it for about a month now and I've shot about 200 rounds of Ultramax 38-40 through it, (which is rated at 650 fps), and haven't noticed any problems.

[Mako]

ntex2000
I meant a CAS club, you said you were new to CAS.  You know, NCOWS, SASS, Western 3-Gun.  I've actually been on that range, it's a nice range, but I don't think they have ever had a CAS match on it or ever will due to the way it is laid out.

A cowboy shooter still might be best bet to find someone who reloads .44WCF or .38WCF, you use the same loading techniques for both.  I think I know someone who probably shoots at those matches and is probably a member at that club, but I'm not sure.  I sent him an email to find out.

I reread your posts about your rifle and I hadn't realized you had just bought that rifle.  In the barrel condition you described that's not an inexpensive '92.

I haven't even seen it and I'll trade you a new '73 or '92 reproduction, supply the die sets and give you a private loading lesson.    What's the serial number range?  Just tell me the first numbers then last 3 digits as X's to keep it private.

~Mako

[Ranch 13]

Just bought a Hornady single stage reloading kit and will be reloading for my 100+ year old Model 1892 Winchester lever action in .38-40. I've looked at the different brands of dies sold at Midway and am completely unsure about which brand to get.  Saw another post elsewhere in which the poster recommended getting a separate Lee factory crimp die   Am planning to buy Starline brass and .401 Lasercast bullets.

Anyway, I need some good advice on which die set to get.  Would've probably been leaning in favor of the Hornady, but something in their website description for their .38-40 die set just didn't seem right compared to other manufacturers.

Thanks for your help!

Speaking from experience , get the Hornady, if not them then either RCBS or Lyman. With either of those die sets the lee factory crimp die is unneeded.
I like winchester brass the best for the 38wcf.
.401 bullet diameter should be right, most likely what that old winchester was chambered for.
If those Lazercast bullets aren't lubed with a blackpowder lube, you can put them in a pan of boiling water and boil the lube out and then relube them with a good lube.
The RCBS 180 gr bullet for the 38-40 works real well with either black or smokeless powder.
These folks sell a good variety of bullets that will work for you
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/38_40.html
http://www.cheycast.com/catalog.htm
Have fun with this old cartridge when it's loaded to levels it was intended to be used at it's a wonder it went into the obscolete category.

[ntex2000]

ntex2000
I meant a CAS club, you said you were new to CAS.  You know, NCOWS, SASS, Western 3-Gun.  I've actually been on that range, it's a nice range, but I don't think they have ever had a CAS match on it or ever will due to the way it is laid out.

A cowboy shooter still might be best bet to find someone who reloads .44CF or .38WF, you use the same loading techniques for both..  I think I know someone who probably shoots at those matches and is probably a member at that club, but I'm not sure.  I sent him an email to find out.

I reread your posts about your rifle and I hadn't realized you had just bought that rifle.  In the barrel condition you described that's not an inexpensive '92.

I haven't even seen it and I'll trade you a new '73 or '92 reproduction, supply the die sets and give you a private loading lesson.    What's the serial number range?  Just tell me the first numbers then last 3 digits as X's to keep it private.

~Mako

I meant that I was new to CAScity and new to cowboy action silhouette as well.  HCR&PC have monthly cowboy action silhouette matches, and I intend to participate in those, but I have a great interest also in NCOWS and other org's matches.  Not sure yet which one.  Did some web research a few weeks back and found the Berger, Commanche Valley and Lone Star Frontier clubs are all within a reasonable distance from Fort Worth. Would like to go and visit a match to see how everything is done.

Sorry Mako, but it's a no go on a trade. Almost every time I've had it out at either HC or Alpine someone has asked if I was interested in selling it.  But this is a rifle I'll probably hand down to my daughter or grandkids.  S/N begins with 494xxx, making it an '09 mfg. date.  Spent the extra money on it because of the bore and because it has some fancy non-factory hand carved checkering on the forend and butt stock.  On the carving, the story goes that some old cowboy working on one of the big ranches hand carved the checkering during the winter months when things were slow due to weather.  Don't know if it's quite true or not, but it probably adds a little charm to it anyway.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Just a small point, nTex2-grand.

Bp is ONLY corrosive if you live in a humid environment AND you ignore your gun after shooting it.

I've got a standing bet to some who thinks BP cleaning is so terrible & hard.  I'll bet I can clean 2 or3 BP guns for every one smokeyless-fired gun.  I'm NOT talking about run a swab 'thru the barrel and/or cylinder to get out the loose junque, I'm talking about CLEAN.  Maybe not to the standards I used to require myself and my soldier's weapons, but clean and taken care enough that you could put it away for a year or two with no damage.

Cleaning BP residue and keeping it from messing up your guns is easy.  All it takes is water (hot preferred) and a bore brush and a rag.  And the bore brush is optional - a cleaning jag with a patch will do about as well.

What IS true about BP cleaning over cleaning smokeyless is that BP cleaning can be very messy and many object to the smell.  But you get used to it ... and it doesn't smell any worse than when you and your loving wife get home from the horse-pistol with your new baby and then baby has a bad tummy and nasty stuff comes out of both ends ... sometimes at once!


It kinda grows on ya ... and besides, shooting real BP (not so much with the various subs) is sooooo cool when you get to see flames shooting out, and huge clouds of fragrant white smoke surrounds you and seeing pretty white smoke-rings travel to the target!


Photo by: unknown - taken at Ft. Riley, KS. during the 2007 US Cavalry competion

(OK - maybe there was a bit of propane in the balloon target he shot, but I think you get the idea!)

Anyway ... Mako is also right that your gun perhaps should be babied some because it's apparent age and perhaps value, but since you HAVE fired some 200 rounds from it, you probably know that it is most likely safe.  I'm not a Winchester expert by any means, but I'm pretty sure that ALL Winchesters after 1890 (and perhaps after the 1885 Hi-Wall/Lo-Wall and the 1886 big-bore lever action rifles) were developed and built using high-strength steel capable of handling smokeless /nitro powders.

If you can, please post a picture.  This crowd LOVES to see cool guns from others of us!

On the carving, the story goes that some old cowboy working on one of the big ranches hand carved the checkering during the winter months when things were slow due to weather.  Don't know if it's quite true or not, but it probably adds a little charm to it anyway.

VERY hard to prove, but it sure did happen enough that it could easily be true.  If I owned the rifle, I'd be happy (like you seem to be) to continue believing that charming story!  Buying it for the bore and also action is certainly the way to buy.  If you LIKE the hand-cut carving, it's just icing on the cake!  It's all good!!

[Mako]

Spent the extra money on it because of the bore and because it has some fancy non-factory hand carved checkering on the forend and butt stock.

ntex2000,
I'm very glad you mentioned it has non-factory carving and checkering, I had planned on calling my Winchester buddy this weekend.

It turns out the guy I was telling you about does shoot at the HCR&PC monthly Cowboy Silhouette matches.   Even better, he's a member at both the Vigilantes and at Lone Star Frontier clubs.  He's also a member of GAF and is extremely active in SASS and everything else you can think of.  He's actually a member on CAS city and he even posts on this forum every once in a while, but I haven't seen him on this particular forum in a while.

I sent him your info, so expect a message from him.  If you want I can relay your phone number to him to make sure you connect with him before next Saturday.

Regards,
Mako

[Montana Slim]

1892's have a pretty strong action...regardless of when it was manufactured. I'd not hesitate to use any published load data using lead bullets in it (providing the rifle is intact & pases a function check). My Pa has a number of original & repro 38/40s. After working with many powders he settled on Trail Boss. Personally, my rifles are in 44-40 & fed a diet of BP.

Everyones die sets seem to work adequately for use in rifles, since they have a camming action. I have found Lee die sets in 38-40 & 44-40 need to set the shoulder back between .005 - .010 deeper than than they could adjust as manufactured. A simple matter to grind or stone them a bit shorter. Lee will also do this for you at no charge...talk to customer service. This was only necessary when we started loading for revolvers.

Slim

[fourfingersofdeath]

I have dies in virtually all the common brands apart from Dillon. There is not much in it I mostly buy Lee dies as they are a better deal and generally have the Lee factory crimp die.

For CAS, any brand will do, but if you think you might ultimately do long range and precision stuff you might have to give it a bit more thought. I'd just buy whats available and when you get more experience specialise if you like, a spare set of dies is never a burden, allowing you to set up for two different bullets, etc. Not much money tied up.