Henry Big Boy Rifles

Cliff Fendley · November 02, 2011, 06:46:17 PM

Quote from: Mossy Pops on November 02, 2011, 12:48:49 PM

The argument about the HBB not being authentic is kind of weak in my mind also. The Ruger's are pretty popular handguns, but they sure aren't authentic old west guns.

I wouldn't go that far, the Ruger Vaquero at least looks like a Colt and from a few feet away it's hard to tell them apart if they have the same finish. You can tell a HBB from the other authentic models from a mile away.

Mossy Pops · November 02, 2011, 09:19:36 PM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on November 02, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
I wouldn't go that far, the Ruger Vaquero at least looks like a Colt and from a few feet away it's hard to tell them apart if they have the same finish. You can tell a HBB from the other authentic models from a mile away.

The new Vaquero looks similar, the old doesn't. Neither are authentic. Both are modern style handguns with all the advantages of a modern handgun. I guess I have more tolerance for a guy shooting a HBB than I do for gamers shooting modern pistols with mouse fart loads and short stroked 66's or 73's. The game is supposed to be fun, not ultra competitive.

Major 2 · November 03, 2011, 12:59:38 AM

"The game is supposed to be fun, not ultra-competitive. "

Where you see the game , is your ( and my ) perception, other's would see it as serious win-win at all cost competition ( and there in lie's their fun )

The question was..."would the Henry Repeating Arms "Big Boy" make a good Western Action Shooter"

The short answer is... NO
can it be used in SASS ? ... for fun yes ! competitive not very likely ( it is however approved for SASS )

the Henry Repeating Arms "Big Boy" is not approved for NCOWS ....

Mossy Pops · November 03, 2011, 07:06:09 AM

Quote from: Major 2 on November 03, 2011, 12:59:38 AM
"The game is supposed to be fun, not ultra-competitive. "

Where you see the game , is your ( and my ) perception, other's would see it as serious win-win at all cost competition ( and there in lie's their fun )

I guess the spirit of the game no longer applies if it gets in the way of someone's idea of fun. Sounds remarkably similar to situational ethics to me.

I agree with your assessment of the HBB though. What rubs me the wrong way is the snobbiness some folks display regarding it.

Major 2 · November 03, 2011, 08:38:53 AM

Quote from: Mossy Pops on November 03, 2011, 07:06:09 AM
I guess the spirit of the game no longer applies if it gets in the way of someone's idea of fun. Sounds remarkably similar to situational ethics to me.

I agree with your assessment of the HBB though. What rubs me the wrong way is the snobbiness some folks display regarding it.

Big Boy & History VS Vaquero & History
I'm afraid it's more basic than situational ethics or consequential theory ..
where the end may be justified (the rules) , if the means to justify the end
(Rules) situation is not intrinsically bad.

One best not go there

But on point...

The Big Boy is not a fast action, against a short stroke ,wisper springed competition it has an Ice Cube's chance in Hell !
Not Snobby just fact .....
If a shooter has one, he MAY shoot it (with SASS)... if he's looking to buy one..well he's been advised, if Competition is his bag.

Mossy Pops · November 03, 2011, 09:16:43 AM

Quote from: Major 2 on November 03, 2011, 08:38:53 AM
I'm afraid it's more basic than situational ethics or consequential theory ..
where the end may be justified (the rules) , if the means to justify the end
(Rules) situation is not intrinsically bad.

One best not go there

Spoken like a true gamer or situational ethics practioner. All depends on your version of what's intrinsically bad does it? Your right to assume that rules alone won't stop gamers from finding ways around the rules though. That's what the spirit of the game was suppossedto do. I assume you shoot Vaqueros and a short stroked 66 or 73. Let me guess, calibre .38 with a light slug and load.

Major 2 · November 03, 2011, 10:37:13 AM

Well Dude ..what 5 posts in ?....and you think you have peged me HUH !

Well sorry , your way off target

No Vaquaro's, NO SHORT Stroke either

Mossy Pops · November 03, 2011, 10:44:11 AM

I stand corrected. What do you shoot?

Major 2 · November 03, 2011, 11:07:47 AM

Richards Type 1 ... There are others but all are Colt Conversions of some type.
Henry (Uberti) in fact two)
a Short Rifle 73 ( No short strokes or Light lifters ) on any

NCOWS working Cowboy which is two gun class.
and If shooting Sodbuster or 4 gun class a Hammered Double
and Black Powder mostly.

I shot SASS in the early late 80's & 90's ..dabble in it still

Mossy Pops · November 03, 2011, 11:44:40 AM

Very Nice. I shoot USFA 45 colt SAA clones, double barrel with hammers, and a 73 rifle (no short stroke, lifter, etc.).

The HBB gets used when both my sons shoot with me. I guess I'm just overly touchy about some of the comments they have to put up with for shooting it.

I am hammering out some issues with BP through a new set of Uberti 1858 Remington conversions in 44-40. I have a 66 in 44-40 to go with them and will get started shooting BP in the spring hopefully. I wish there was an NCOWS shoot around Ohio. I'd love to try that out.

Sam Cobra · November 03, 2011, 02:57:59 PM

Thanks for all the input Pards

and I do have a Vaquero

and a Stoeger Coach Gun...but no rifle yet! But I appreciate the education!

Cliff Fendley · November 04, 2011, 07:43:54 AM

Quote from: Mossy Pops on November 02, 2011, 09:19:36 PM
The new Vaquero looks similar, the old doesn't. Neither are authentic. Both are modern style handguns with all the advantages of a modern handgun. I guess I have more tolerance for a guy shooting a HBB than I do for gamers shooting modern pistols with mouse fart loads and short stroked 66's or 73's. The game is supposed to be fun, not ultra competitive.

Sorry but I had to chuckle at your post. You tolerate a guy shooting a rifle that is not correct and doesn't even look right but wont tolerate someone shooting a pistol that was obviously designed with Colts influence but with modern "internal" differences that you can't see and were done for safety and reliability. You bash an obviously great design with the lines and external appearance of the originals but tolerate a rifle that has little more than a name in comparison to the old guns? I'm confused but to each his own.

The Ruger is a stronger more dependable design but the HBB has nothing over the Winchesters.

I prefer to shoot the original designs but always have a Ruger with me for a backup in case all the others break.

Sam, if you can afford it go for the Winchester designs. I have a Golden Boy which is a great little 22 but my brothers big boy just flat out aint as good as the Winchesters. It shoots great but not as good in the heat of battle.

If you get in a reload situation you'll really be wishing you had a 66/73 or 92. The original Henry is even a much quicker reload than the HBB.

Mossy Pops · November 04, 2011, 09:11:18 AM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on November 04, 2011, 07:43:54 AM
Sorry but I had to chuckle at your post. You tolerate a guy shooting a rifle that is not correct and doesn't even look right but wont tolerate someone shooting a pistol that was obviously designed with Colts influence but with modern "internal" differences that you can't see and were done for safety and reliability. You bash an obviously great design with the lines and external appearance of the originals but tolerate a rifle that has little more than a name in comparison to the old guns? I'm confused but to each his own.

I'll accept your point about the difference in appearance having some bearing and I'm not bashing anyone's design. Ruger makes a fine modern handgun. What I would reiterate is that it seems like a classic case of hypocrisy when a guy rolls with Rugers and short stroked Winchesters firing mouse fart loads that would struggle to knock a bowling pin off a table, then critizes a guy for shooting a HBB cause that's what he probably could afford. Neither shooter is very authentic, but one isn't cause he probably has to, the other isn't cause he gets a competative edge.

Cliff Fendley · November 04, 2011, 10:46:36 PM

Mossy, I see the point you were trying to make.

I'm more into the historical aspect of it rather than competition so I like to see the original designs without modifications. There probably is a slight time advantage with the Ruger on a reload since you don't have to half cock it but I have to admit I do like Rugers and don't blame someone for shooting them for the reliability they offer.

I personally don't like the Big boy much because not only is it not authentic it has also shown to be a little more prone to problems so if someone can afford it go with one of the Winchester designs. I shoot NCOWS so the HBB is not allowed anyway so someone needs to take note of that too.

Lead Zeppelin · November 06, 2011, 08:00:38 AM

Pardon me for sticking my nose in...

This sort of reminds me of the old line: We've established you're a whore, now we're just negotiating the price.

What I mean is, when any modern production items are allowed, the authenticity is compromised. The rules could have stated: Only authentic period firearms, no reproductions. Requiring authentic Henry & Winchester rifles from prior to 1899 would certainly solve the authenticity issue. That would also make this game unavailable to a large percentage of the current membership. So, it seems to me that now we're simply negotiating over how much loss in authenticity is acceptable. I suspect many people are more tolerant of less authenticity when it is because the shooter is new, or poor, etc - as long as they aren't competitive. We want to be inclusive - as long as they don't beat us in the standings...

This all seems like the natural result of having a game that includes a timer. If this game was based on pure accuracy with no speed component, then we would probably be discussing the use of heavy barrels, modified grips and other accuracy mods. In some ways, I guess this is the difference between reenactment and CAS - when there is a component to the game other than authenticity, the result will always be something less than authentic.

Cliff Fendley · November 06, 2011, 08:42:05 AM

That's what I like about NCOWS, not that everyone is PC but most are much closer to being and most seem to be just out having fun and not in it for the competition. Targets are generally much farther away so accuracy plays a larger part.

Lead Zeppelin · November 06, 2011, 11:03:22 AM

Unfortunately, NCOWS doesn't seem to be very active in Southern California - at least not that I have found near to me. SASS is quite active, with several posses within an hour or so.

Mossy Pops · November 06, 2011, 03:43:51 PM

In an ideal world, NCOWS style shoots could coexist with SASS shoots, just as its own category, or even posse. Not ever having been to an NCOWS match, I don't know if this would even be possible. What do you NCOWS guys say? How different is the logistics of an NCOWS match?

Cliff Fendley · November 06, 2011, 05:51:03 PM

It can be done, some of the posse around here shoot some NCOWS classes during the shoots and sometimes they just shoot NCOWS rules once in a while.

TwoWalks Baldridge · November 06, 2011, 06:04:57 PM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on November 06, 2011, 08:42:05 AM
That's what I like about NCOWS, not that everyone is PC but most are much closer to being and most seem to be just out having fun and not in it for the competition. Targets are generally much farther away so accuracy plays a larger part.

Cliff, this is my view as well. I am a member of NCOWS and there is no club with 700 miles of me.

I select my guns, clothing and all other items based on NCOWS, I shoot SASS.

I will be purchasing a rifle and shotgun in 2012 instead of borrowing and they will be selected by NCOWS guidelines.

Mossy Pops, For speed I shoot sass for accuracy I shoot paper. I get both worlds and do not see any reason that a few like minded folks can not be NCOWS while the targets are SASS.