.36 caliber Navy model accuracy

[SwampMouse]

I spent most of Sunday shooting my 1861 Navy pistols in preparation for hunting season. I am not satisfied with the accuracy of either one and would welcome some help.

This was my procedure. Both pistols started clean and have tresco nipples. I used a gauge to set the cylinder gaps to .006 inches. I weighed charges from 21 to 16 grains in 1/2 grain steps. I fired all shots at 15 yards using Hornady  80 grain balls and a few Speer balls with Goex 3F powder and Rem 11 or CCI 11 caps. I used two different ways of adding lube. I still don't have thick felt, so I am using old hat felt with tallow and beeswax liniment to make wads. I ran out of wads so I switched to lube over the loaded balls.

I ended up only shooting one pistol, so I cleaned it again after deciding to shoot only one and again after I finished the first box of balls. Then three more times before each 24 shots with 3 different loads at the end. After going through all of the first measured charges I weighed more at 19, 18 1/2 and 18 grains and shot 24 more of each. The 18 and 18 1/2 grain groups look almost identical. They are strung out vertically from 3 inches to 4 1/2 inches, but they don't have much windage variation.If the groups were round they would be close to 2 inches.

I can't find a lot of posted information on target shooting with the Navy models. I have read where people say there is target competition with black powder pistols, but I'm not finding links to the organization or individuals doing it. Any words of advice or where to look from those of you that have Navy models that shoot better than 2 or 3 inches at 15 yards would be appreciated.
SM

[willy]

If I do my part, my Uberti 1851 36 cal. Navy will group into 2" at 25 yards.

My load is .380 round ball over 25 gr. FFFG ,,,,,and NO wad and NO  lube.
The only time I lube is when I'm plinking , and then it is only every 3rd or 4th cylinder fired.

[Wolfgang]

What really matters is the diamerter of the balls you are shooting in the ralation to the bore.   Have you slugged the bore ?   What diameter balls are you using ?   I'm presuming that they are pure soft lead ?  Also presume you are shooting an Italian made replica ?  Many have chambers that are smaller than the bore diameter.  Mine pistols shoot Ok even with the small diameter chambers as I use the largest dia balls that i can get, . . .  which sear off a lot of lead when seated and which then have quite a bit of surface on the chamber walls . . then the stout charges that I use obdurate the ball into the rifling.   I also have hollow base conicals that shoot FATASTIC as the hollow base expands well into the rifling even though it is a loose fit in the chamber.  

I'm shootin  .44 cal Remingtons  . . . . but the same principles apply to the loading of your .36s.

ps.  the only lube I use is a 50/50 mix of olive oil and toilet bowl wax over the balls.

[Mako]

Swampmouse,
I posted a link to this thread on the other forum.

I saw on THR you were talking about a range rod that would fit a Percussion cylinder.  I won't post images over there anymore so I came back over here to answer your question.  Here is a gage that will work.  You have to make a stepped gage and insert it into the cylinder and reassemble the barrel.  Unfortunately you'll have to do it six times, but you'll know if the chamber is lining up.

After the gage head is inserted run the threaded rod through the bore and thread it into the gage head.




After it's threaded pull it back into the bore.



The caveat is that the forcing cone will help align the gage head, the advantage of the standard gage is that it approaches the chamber from the barrel.  With a standard gage you can always feel it hit that perpendicular cylinder face if it is the slightest bit off.  You will probably have to be more discerning if the cone is involved.

I have a couple of suggestions.

• I think you need to try a few loads below 16 grains to see if that tightens them up.
• Try putting a split washer in the arbor hole for now.  Your vertical deviation might be caused by some barrel shift during recoil.
• Try a cylinder loader with your light loads to make sure you get consistent pressure and load depth.

Have you measured the diameter of your chambers, and what size ball are you using?

Mine do pretty well for tight accuracy between 16 and 18 grains.  I have one Leech and Rigdon that actually does better with 20 grains, they are all a bit different.  I have settled on a Ø.375 ball for all of my .36 caliber pistols, more so for having one ball size than anything else.  I don't think anyone makes a Ø.380 swaged ball right now, Dixie has them as cast balls.

I haven't tried to ring out super tight groups, but I find they shoot well with lubed wads, Ø.375 balls and Remington caps.  I have noticed some are easier to load that others which tells me the Ø.375 balls have different fits in my cylinders.

Regards,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Mako, this is all I  (perhaps WE) can see:

This image or video has been moved or deleted.
Photobucket

[Cuts Crooked]

 Also presume you are shooting an Italian made replica ?  Many have chambers that are smaller than the bore diameter.  

Wolfgang brought up a good thought there. I have no experience with the .36 pistols but I too have encountered the underbore chamber problem found in Eyetalian reproductions in .44 cal. I have one Remington style .44 that has had the chambers reamed out to .451 and it is the most accurate of my .44s, when loaded with .457 or .454 balls.

Accuracy of my unmodified Remmies is acceptable, but not on a par with the one that has had the chambers reamed! Perhaps you should check this situation out in your .36s?

[SwampMouse]

Mako, this is all I  (perhaps WE) can see:

This image or video has been moved or deleted.
Photobucket

Steel Horse Bailey,

It's not just you, I can't see it either.
SM

[Mako]

Mako, this is all I  (perhaps WE) can see:

This image or video has been moved or deleted.
Photobucket

Sorry guys I was adding a new design and I changed the name.  I should have checked.

They are back now.

~Mako

[Montana Slim]

Swampmouse, you didn't mention the manufacturer....this may help as I see different issues with most manufacturers..

I too, agree chamber diameter in relation to bore diameter is a key factor. A Chamber alignment can be a factor....but, greatly reduced by opening and smoothing the forcing cone - I do this on all my percussion revolvers...and most cartridge revolvers, too.

Generally, I've found Pietta chambers to be a bit undersize and inconsistent compared to Uberti....also, Pietta forcing cones often leave much to be desired (and left to your imagination).

As far as a .006 gap....I would never intentionally open a C&B pistol any amount, other than to ensure a smooth surface between barerel & cylinder. My Uberti & Pietta Colt-type revolvers are all well under 1/2 that gap. However, I would not be uncomfortable with a .006 gap on most cartridge revolvers...but OTOH, I've never opened any of my cartridge revolvers gap, either.

As far as loading procedure for accuracy, forego the wads and only use lube on top, if necessary, for sustained shooting.
best accuracy will be obtained with lighter loads 12-15 grains....use cornmeal or crean of wheat on top of the powder to seat the ball close to the chamber mouth.

I assume you'll only be picking-off squirrels and such with your .36, anyway.

Best & good luck,
Slim

[Mako]

Swampmouse,
I started thinking about the possibility of doing a "Bunker" style gage instead of the ones we all buy from Brownells. The problem with the brownells gage is that it can never be any closer that the difference between the bore and the land height.  The rod always has to be slightly smaller than the land diameter and the chambers will be the bore size or larger.

The Bunker style uses a cartridge body shape, but since we are talking blind chambers it calls for something else.  If we put a spring behind the plug it will push it up to the forcing cone allowing us to see if the rod tip fits into the gage bore.  If the gage bore doesn't line up we can see it as we push the end of the plug into the chamber.


Plug forward in chamber, no pressure from rod.



Rod has aligned with plug and entered the bore (this chamber lines up very well).


The lined up plug is pushed back past the cylinder gap where it can be visually verified as being in the gage bore.





Each chamber has to be individually measured with dis-assembly involved between the measurements.

Regards.
Mako

[SwampMouse]

Swampmouse, you didn't mention the manufacturer....this may help as I see different issues with most manufacturers..

I too, agree chamber diameter in relation to bore diameter is a key factor. A Chamber alignment can be a factor....but, greatly reduced by opening and smoothing the forcing cone - I do this on all my percussion revolvers...and most cartridge revolvers, too.

Generally, I've found Pietta chambers to be a bit undersize and inconsistent compared to Uberti....also, Pietta forcing cones often leave much to be desired (and left to your imagination).

As far as a .006 gap....I would never intentionally open a C&B pistol any amount, other than to ensure a smooth surface between barerel & cylinder. My Uberti & Pietta Colt-type revolvers are all well under 1/2 that gap. However, I would not be uncomfortable with a .006 gap on most cartridge revolvers...but OTOH, I've never opened any of my cartridge revolvers gap, either.

As far as loading procedure for accuracy, forego the wads and only use lube on top, if necessary, for sustained shooting.
best accuracy will be obtained with lighter loads 12-15 grains....use cornmeal or crean of wheat on top of the powder to seat the ball close to the chamber mouth.

I assume you'll only be picking-off squirrels and such with your .36, anyway.

Best & good luck,
Slim

Wolfgang, Cuts Crooked and Montana Slim,

I'm sorry, I have mentioned them before and I forget everyone doesn't remember what I have like I do. They are both Uberti 1861 models. I've had a London model for a few years and I bought a brass frame civilian model this summer. I don't know what the chamber sizes are exactly but they usually shave lead when I load the balls. I have been using Speer and Hornady .375 diameter balls. I will push a ball down each barrel and measure the balls to get an exact bore size. I have a caliper and a micrometer from when I took shop, but I don't have a good way of measuring the chambers. Every time I measure them I get a different number, but I have a friend with a machine shop and I'm sure he has some of those cylinder gauge pins in the correct sizes.

I will probably leave the cylinder gaps at .006 inches unless I am convinced otherwise. More open just looks too big. I tried both wads and lube on top and saw no difference whatsoever, why do you think no wad loads are better? Is that just opinion, or experience? I planned on trying it both ways as I develop a better load. A bunch of people on THR are telling me to use cream of wheat with some really light loads. I will try that to make sure I seat the ball. I have noticed they shoot a lot of things differently than most of the shooters on this forum. I don't have a loader like Makos suggested, I was going to use a short piece of steel rod just smaller than the balls and set it on top of them act as a spacer as I used the loader on the pistol to make sure they are seated against the powder.

You are correct about squirrels, that's why I need the 1 1/2" accuracy and a low velocity load will work fine. This is creating a problem with my sights because I am already seeing the point of impact drop a couple of inches shooting lighter loads from the bench. I was planning on having the front sights changed out on both pistols to drop the point of impact, but until I get them both figured out I am still not happy. Shooting squirrels is hard enough without holding 7 to 9 inches low.
SM

[SwampMouse]

Makos,

Did you already have those, or make them just for me? That looks like a lot of work to check my chambers.

You mentioned "a "Bunker" style gage", is that a company? If so, do you have an address or website for them? Are they expensive?

Thank you and everyone else as well for the help.

Thanks again.
SM

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Mako (with no "S")   

Thanks for fixing the pics!

SHB

[Mako]

Wildman,
That's so it doesn't get stuck...

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
Mako

[Mako]

Mako (with no "S")   

Thanks for fixing the pics!

SHB

No prob. I was adding the new ones and was trying to organize the folder with some name changes.  Sorry.

I've been trying to break him of the "s" for a while (hint...hint).  On a couple of other boards I couldn't get "Mako" and I ended up using my email address name so I get called Makos a lot.  He's on two of them, that's where he picked it up.  He should know better...

~Mako (NO "S")

[Claypipe]

I spent most of Sunday shooting my 1861 Navy pistols in preparation for hunting season.

SM

What sort of hunting are you aiming to do that includes your 61 navies?

CP

[Mako]

Makos,

Did you already have those, or make them just for me? That looks like a lot of work to check my chambers.

You mentioned "a "Bunker" style gage", is that a company? If so, do you have an address or website for them? Are they expensive?

Thank you and everyone else as well for the help.

Thanks again.
SM

Swampmouse(S)
I checked online to see if Gary was selling his gages.  I'm pretty sure he has them for most cartridge revolvers and a guy who used to work for me showed me one, it was pretty sweet.  It was all brass to prevent dinging anything.  Robert used to use Brownells gages until he got his.  I'll ask what he paid for it, I think he has the cartridge heads in .38 spl, .38 Super and .45 ACP.  Unfortunately, Robert doesn't have heads in .44 Spl because that's what I wanted to use.

The .38 Super was a special order head to allow 627s to be set-up, so you could probably get him to make you a custom blind insert for a .36 caliber percussion cylinder.  Be careful in what you ask for, there is variation in the chamber sizes and there is no SAAMI spec or anything like that.

I found a number for Gary Bunker, he's working as a gunsmith for a company in Arizona that does a lot of 3-Gun work. (877) 922-2887.  I looked on their site and there is no mention of it being available.  He might be doing what Dave Dawson was wtih STI and selling gunsmithing items on the side.  I'd just call and ask for him, I'm not sure if he has an ownership position in the company, so be discrete.

~Mako (NO "s")

[Mako]

SwampmouseS,
I put this chart together for Dick, and as you can see there is a range of .007" in the chamber dimensions just on the six I measured. If you take the ASM an the G&U out of the mix it gets down to .004", but I wouldn't count on it.



Yo need to measure and figure how much clearance you need. Talk to Gary and ask him what clearance he uses compared to the SAAMI chamber dimensions for revolver chambers and it will give you an idea of how much you need.  I'm curious as to how much clearance he does leave. PM me if you need help.

Don't forget you need the depth the measurement you are telling him goes into the cylinder.  If you look at the models you'll see the Uberti holes are usually stepped.  It appears they use a 9.4mm drill and then follow with a 9.5mm reamer or maybe a .373" reamer.  It's harder to tell on the .36 cylinders than the .44 cylinders, there is a bigger step on the .44s and there is a generous lead on the reamer.

~Mako (NO "s")

[SwampMouse]

Forgive me MR. MAKO "no S" SIR!

I need to go by the shop in town this week and drop off my cylinders for measurement. I printed the picture and I'll show him what I need. Should I show him the dimensions you took?

I'll try to call Gary Buckner and find out if he makes them. I'm not flush with cash right now and I may have to convince the armorer he needs a set.

I'm getting some load info from the target shooters over on Blackpowder Shooting. I even have some telling me not to weigh. You must have allies. I know you're right and 1/10 probably doesn't make a difference, but I wanted to try and do this scientifically.

When were those Uberti 1861s made? Which version are they? I know it's probably a coincidence but each of your Ubertis has the chamber dimensions that are grouped.

Thank you again.
SM "no second s"

[Mako]

Forgive me MR. MAKO "no S" SIR!

I need to go by the shop in town this week and drop off my cylinders for measurement. I printed the picture and I'll show him what I need. Should I show him the dimensions you took?

I'll try to call Gary Buckner and find out if he makes them. I'm not flush with cash right now and I may have to convince the armorer he needs a set.

I'm getting some load info from the target shooters over on Blackpowder Shooting. I even have some telling me not to weigh. You must have allies. I know you're right and 1/10 probably doesn't make a difference, but I wanted to try and do this scientifically.

When were those Uberti 1861s made? Which version are they? I know it's probably a coincidence but each of your Ubertis has the chamber dimensions that are grouped.

Thank you again.
SM "no second s"

Forgive me MR. MAKO "no S" SIR!

And don't forget it...

Don't show him the dimensions until you return.  If they seem a lot different than what I show have him show you the pin in the cylinder.  Careful though because they often have a slight taper.  Try the next pin size down and see if it goes down to the step.  Do tell him to record both diameters for you and the depth of the larger one from the chamber mouth.  It doesn't have to be exact, a caliper from the pin to the face of the cylinder and subtract that from the pin length will work.

You are wasting your time with the weighing.  I'm going to send you a cheap cylinder loader I have for you to try.  A hard consistent press is more important than weighing.  I have read some of those loads and you may need to use a filler if you try them.  Sooner or later you will run out of the front diameter and that will undersize your ball, or make you think you have it bottomed out.  Send me your address.

~Mako ( NO "S")