1858 remington barrel split

[Corkscrew Tom]

Anyone ever had a Uberti 1858 barrel split on them? Was shooting one of mine the other day and and the loading lever lug under the barrel fell off and the lever dropped down. When I turned it over I saw a split on the bottom flat running thru the the lug's counterbore the whole length of the barrel to about an inch from the frame. Needless to say it kind of ruined my shooting that day. I unscrewed the barrel and the frame is not damaged. A new barrel is on it's way. Just wondered if anyone had experienced this before. Thanks, CorkscrewTom

[Wolfgang]

Nope . . . and never heered of such an event.   

[Major 2]

Until now..never

[Claypipe]

What sort of powder and loads were you using? Was there any blockage in the barrel? Can we see a photo of the crack?

CP

[Slowhand Bob]

Shux, and they are supposed to be better made than my cheap Piettas?  Did you contact Uberti, I would think that they might like to examine the barl.

[Junkman]

Uberti's are a little better finished, but NOT better made than Pietta's (they just cost more). 

[Corkscrew Tom]

No barrel obstruction. Loads were 1.9cc FFFg Elaphant Black powder with 200 gr. Big Lube .45 cal. I'll get a picture to show if I can get it to show up good. I can see light thru the crack looking down the barrel. No I haven't contacted Uberti, good suggestion. I did not buy these new from a dealer but third hand and don't know who bought them new. I've been shooting them for about a year now.
Thanks for the input, CorkscrewTom

[Jubal Wilson]

I had a Cimarron Uberti 1873 Colt SA (the 7 1/2" Cavalry model) split the whole length on the bottom. The load that I was shooting was a factory duplication load that I have been shooting for the last 48 years in my real Colt SSA. (I know it wasn't Holy Black but it was a split Uberti barrel) I was shooting at a target at 50 yards and saw dust kicked up from every shot so there was nothing stuck in the barrel. I did not hear or feel anything different before or after the barrel split. The only reason I checked the gun was because the accuracy went to hell. Just thought I would let you know.

[Norton Commando]

I hope you get good pictures I want to see that.
SM

I couldn't agree more!

[Claypipe]

No barrel obstruction. Loads were 1.9cc FFFg Elaphant Black powder with 200 gr. Big Lube .45 cal. I'll get a picture to show if I can get it to show up good. I can see light thru the crack looking down the barrel. No I haven't contacted Uberti, good suggestion. I did not buy these new from a dealer but third hand and don't know who bought them new. I've been shooting them for about a year now.
Thanks for the input, CorkscrewTom

Hmm, 1.9cc of fffg, just shy of 30 grains. The only things that come to mind are:

1.) Manufacture defect, hey, it happens.

2.) Bullet not seated deep enough, resulting in detonation, aka flash over.

3.) Void in Bullet when casted. Creating just enough resistance to split the barrel, yet not block it.

4.) or even a combination of 2 & 3?

CP

[Corkscrew Tom]

BTW the barrel is a Peitta not Uberti, not that it matters much... or maybe it does. Here are some pics of the split. As far as I tell and see with the naked eye it stops about an inch give or take from where it meets the frame.

[john boy]

Corkscrew - never heard or saw the likes of a long barrel crack on any handgun or rifle.  My guess is there were impurities in the bar steel for this barrel.  When the pressure and the sine wave was going down bore the impurities couldn't 'take it' and the barrel split.  Since barrel blanks are much longer and then cut to length - there has to be a few more around that look like this or will look like it

[Mako]

Swampmouse,
You're right, I think someone has gotten their terms mixed up in an attempt to answer.  A "flash-over" as the poster was trying use it is actually a sympathetic detonation which has nothing to do with a problem in a single chamber.  It is basically a secondary explosion of a separate explosive charge caused by debris, shock wave concussion or heat from a primary explosion.  In most cases it is a concussive "flash-over."  A lot of modern explosives have been developed specifically to have resistance to sympathetic detonations.

Detonation as it pertains to small arms ammunition was used back in the '60s and '70s to describe a phenomenon with some fast burning smokeless powders that had very low volume ratios to their energy densities.   People were getting unexplained ruptured cylinders while firing very light target loads.  The primary offending powder was one that originated in 1897 and is still in use today.  It has gone through two major evolutions and remains one of the primary pistol target powders today.  The other was a "Winchester" powder which has since been reformulated (and renamed) into a powder with more bulk to help prevent the problem.  Some writers erroneously reported it was to help with double charging which doesn't make sense because the volume is still very small and not enough to prevent double charging.

The problem existed with relatively long cartridges like the .38 spl shooting light PPC and other very light target loads.  There was so little volume with the powder it would lay on the bottom of the case as the revolver was aimed and the primer "flash" (brisance) would literally shoot over the top of the charge and ignite it from the front.  A "flame front" creating a pressure wave would actually travel to the rear and if it met a wave coming from the rear there was a huge spike in pressure because the normal path to relieving the building pressure would be to the front as the bullet was pushed forward.    This usually resulted in a ruptured cylinder.   Some have argued that even the wave moving to the rear and reflecting off of the base wall of the case was enough to create the pressure spike.  I am in the camp for opposing shock waves.

It has been reported that in some cases the bullet would move forward slightly and the barrel would rupture at the forcing cone area and threaded extension in the frame, which is usually the thinnest and weakest portion of a barrel.  This was reported to cause a failure cascade and the frame would break at this point as well.  I will add that most failures of this type are caused by a first bullet (usually from a squib) already being in the bore.  I have never read of a controlled test where the frame failed in this manner, but they were definitely able to reproduce the "detonation" and split cylinders apart.

The layman's term ended up being "detonation" because they attributed it to simultaneous ignition of all or most of the propellant, it should more properly be called "simultaneous contra, or opposed ignition".   I guess you can see why it has taken on the name "detonation."  This also sometimes happens in solid fuel rocket motors which often have long cores through the axial length of the propellant to give a greater burning surface.  The motors normally burn from the inside out (down the entire length), or from the inside of each core in the case of the multiple core bodies away from the burning surface.  The problem arises when an area towards the rear burns faster and usually burns through to one of the other cores (this is also caused by cracks in the propellant) this may "block" the pressure from the areas burning at the front of the motor.  You once again have opposing flame fronts.   Motor bodies are lightweight and fragile compared to a firearm and the increased pressure will often rupture the body.

I doubt a low charge in a cylinder would cause a crack in a barrel, if anything it would cause a cylinder rupture long before a barrel was affected.  Based on the research of w44wcf and others concerning BP cartridges being less than full in some 19th century reduced power loads I'm starting to even doubt some of the commonly held beliefs on air gaps with BP.  But I'll reserve my comments until I have more data.  If you put so little powder in a '58 chamber that you would get a cap's brisance going over the main charge and igniting it from the front then there would be so little powder it would be an anemic squib load, not something dangerous.  BP is already very low pressure.

You are right about the term flash-over as it applies to cap and ball revolvers.  Chain fires are from flash-overs  where burning gasses from one chambers firing will "flash-over" to another chamber and set it off as well.   "Flash-overs" on cap guns don't cause ruptured cylinders they just send multiple projectiles out of multiple chambers upon one pull of the trigger.

I also wholeheartedly agree with you voids in the bullet will not be a problem.  Bullets are almost always deformed in some fashion and any void to the outside or even an inclusion would be so insignificant that it pales in comparison to the pressures of the burning gases or pressures that would be created in a bore as in the case of a "pneumatic ram."   Even with an entirely hollow ball the volume is very small.

There are two failure mechanisms from blockage in a barrel:

A ball, bullet or even an obstruction like water, ice or mud at the muzzle end of the bore creates blockage at one end of what becomes a pneumatic cylinder.  The oncoming ball acts as a piston compressing the gas (some escapes around the sides of a bullet and precedes it) and air building pressure.   The pressure created by a bullet acting as a piston accelerating through the bore is tremendous.  This phenomenon was well understood even in the 19th century.

The second mechanism pertains to barrels that are sufficiently thick to withstand the initial pneumatic pressure from an obstruction.  In this case the "stuck" bullet in the bore has enough inertia not to move forward or only begins to move before the second bullet strikes it.  The second bullet is decelerated deforming both bullets.  This causes a spike in the pressure behind the fired bullet and is usually enough to add to the strain the barrel has already been exposed to from the previous pneumatic pressure to cause a rupture.

The crack may not be from a defect,  in addition,  lengthwise fracture is actually very common.  The rifling creates stress raisers.  I wish the pictures were in better focus.

Tom, can you give us one that is sharply focused even if it isn't as close up as the ones you have provided?  Just move back a little (keep it as large as possible) until you get one I can blow up on my screen.  I really appreciate the time you have taken to give is these photos already.  Please do one more thing for us, when you look in the bore, how does the crack correspond to the rifling?

If the barrel had been subjected to an earlier over pressure situation the barrel may not have failed catastrophically that time, but a crack(s) could have been initiated.  Continued firing continues to stress the barrel until the cracks finally propagate through the barrel thickness.  Steel is a wonderful material, even when damaged it often slowly fails unless the ultimate tensile strength has been severely exceeded.  When the tensile strength has been exceeded it just means the material begins to neck or plastically deform, not rupture.  It won't spring back, the elastic limits have been exceeded.

If I had to venture a guess I would say either an inclusion in the steel or a previous overpressure.   I tend to lean towards a previous overpressure because a fracture, inclusion or something else would  have to go almost entirely through a piece of steel to be a problem with the low pressures we normally get with a 30 grain load of BP and a .45 (.44) caliber bullet or ball.  The inclusion or manufacturing defect differs from a crack created by an overpressure situation because the surrounding material has not been stressed from a previous event experienced by the entire barrel.  In short the surrounding unaffected steel would act as a reinforcement for the weaker section.  We see this in composite materials every day.

Regards,
Mako

[Corkscrew Tom]

Mako,
Thanks for the very interesting information concerning this split barrel. I will try to get a more focused picture up soon.

I believe I'm assuming correctly from your previous posts that you have an engineering background. I would be happy to mail you the barrel for testing, if you thought it would be of benifit for future questions or similar situations that my arise.

As I stated in my previous post, it very well could have had smokeless loads shot thru it, and they may have very well been "hot". I don't know for sure. I've only shot BP thru it, albiet in .45 cartridges in a conversion cylinder. From what I've read, even a full case of BP with a 200 gr bullet would not create pressures high enough to do damage. Am I correct on this information?

Thanks again for the information and interest in this situation, and thank you all for your replies. I've learned alot just reading this forum.
CorkscrewTom

[Mako]

Makos,

Wow! You're talking about %^*^&^ aren't you?
SM

Swamp Mouse,
We have rules about talking about specific smokeless powders or smokeless loads on this forum, that's why I am being vague.  PM me if you want particulars.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Mako,
Thanks for the very interesting information concerning this split barrel. I will try to get a more focused picture up soon.

I believe I'm assuming correctly from your previous posts that you have an engineering background. I would be happy to mail you the barrel for testing, if you thought it would be of benifit for future questions or similar situations that my arise.

As I stated in my previous post, it very well could have had smokeless loads shot thru it, and they may have very well been "hot". I don't know for sure. I've only shot BP thru it, albiet in .45 cartridges in a conversion cylinder. From what I've read, even a full case of BP with a 200 gr bullet would not create pressures high enough to do damage. Am I correct on this information?

Thanks again for the information and interest in this situation, and thank you all for your replies. I've learned alot just reading this forum.
CorkscrewTom

Tom,
I'm sorry, I missed where you had bought them used.

It's likely they were overloaded before, or more likely had an obstruction in the bore.  That is the fear I always have with any used firearm because I know people get rid of them after they have experienced a problem.   I've bought used revolvers only to find they had split forcing cones that showed up after use, the cracks are sometimes hard to see.  I still buy used guns, you just have to be careful.

You are right about a full chamber of BP in the correct grain size not being dangerous.  If it was 3Fg or larger it would never generate enough pressure to be a problem.  The reason I suspect an obstruction is because the cylinder by your accounts appears to be okay.  The pneumatic ram problem I was describing burst, ruptures perhaps in your case cracks barrels between the obstruction and the fired bullet.

I'll PM you about taking the barrel for inspection.

Regards,
Mako

[Claypipe]

A detonation in a cylinder is not a flash over, they are two different things. A flash over is what causes a chain fire, a detonation is when smokeless powder is ignited from the front in a very empty case.

Voids are cast into bullets every day. Voids on the front are called hollow points and voids at the rear are called hollow bases. I use both.
SM

The phrase "flash over" also refers to the fire from the primer flashing over the powder in the cartridge case, resulting in the detonation of said powder.

And those voids are of a specific design, where as defect voids are generally round and not necessarily helpful to either accuracy, impact or the health of the firearm.

[Claypipe]

Swampmouse,
You're right, I think someone has gotten their terms mixed up in an attempt to answer.  A "flash-over" as the poster was trying use it is actually a sympathetic detonation which has nothing to do with a problem in a single chamber.

Actually, Mako, flash over was a phrase used by old time reloaders, instead of the term "detonation", who published reloading guides back in the 70's.

CP

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Was the powder compressed? I am assuming you were shooting 45 Colt loads and not 45 Schofields in this revolver. My experience with the 200 grain Big Lube bullet (I designed the original version) is that it required more not less powder to get compression than with its big brother the 250 grain PRS bullet. The crimp groove is closer to the base of the bullet in this design than with the PRS bullet. So there is more empty space in the case when the bullet is seated.

My standard load with the 250 grain PRS bullet in a 45 Colt case is 2.2CC of powder, no matter what the brand. This gives about 1/16" of compression when the bullet is seated. However I found that I needed 2.5CC of powder under the original J/P 45-200 design to achieve the same amount of compression. 1.9CC is significantly less than 2.5CC.

Perhaps there was airspace in your cartridge. If we accept the commonly held belief that air spaces with Black Powder can be a bad thing, then perhaps this was part of the problem. Although everything I have read about air spaces in Black Powder cartridges leads me to believe the failure would have been in the cylinder, not the barrel.

On the other hand, if my assumption is wrong and you were shooting 45 Schofield cartridges, 1.9 CC is the same load I put in them under the 200 grain J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet. I get about 1/16" compression with that load.

[Claypipe]

I had a Cimarron Uberti 1873 Colt SA (the 7 1/2" Cavalry model) split the whole length on the bottom. The load that I was shooting was a factory duplication load that I have been shooting for the last 48 years in my real Colt SSA. (I know it wasn't Holy Black but it was a split Uberti barrel) I was shooting at a target at 50 yards and saw dust kicked up from every shot so there was nothing stuck in the barrel. I did not hear or feel anything different before or after the barrel split. The only reason I checked the gun was because the accuracy went to hell. Just thought I would let you know.

I did a quick google search and turned up these posts from other boards:

*First two are probably the same revolver
04-01-2006 I was given a Iver Johnson Cattleman, made by Uberti in 1973-78 in 44 Mag with a split barrel.
04-07-2006 I was given a Uberti Cattleman with a split barrel
12-15- 2009 I need to replace a cracked barrel on an otherwise beautiful like new Uberti 1866 Yellow Boy
05-29-2010 Well I ended up with cracked barrels and Uberti doesn't send many barrels for parts over to the US.

That was a quick search. One can only wonder what an extensive search might reveal?

CP