To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question

[1961MJS]

HI

I've been unable to find the Bullseye-L post complaining about this "problem" but I'll attempt to explain what I hope a female 66 year old shooting a revolver and a shotgun would encounter.

On the NRA form you fill out your name, membership number, classification (High Master 97% down to Marksman 85% or lower), male or female, active military, and age.  On the Bullseye-L forum, there was a complaint that a shooter who put down one of the sub-classes (Senior) won the whole match, but since they had put down Senior, they only won the Senior trophy, not the overall.  I'd like to see the top shooter get the top prize.  In short, if a female 66 year old shooter with a revolver and a shotgun hit more targets in less time than anybody else shooting a revolver and a shotgun, she gets the top prize PERIOD.  I'd argue that if there's another 66 year old (or older) that shoots just under her score would get the Senior Trophy, and the female who shoots the next best score to hers would get the Woman's trophy.  I'm a 4H shooting sports coach, so the whole share the wealth in trophies works well.

I hope this makes sense, AND I just read the complaint, I've never seen an example of this in action.  I also can't find the post again. 

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[Cash Creek]

Why don't we just forget about classes, just line up in our posses by age and shoot and brag about how good we are ..and at the end of the day shake hands go home and tell the family about how much fun we had..

HAVING FUN IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT RIGHT..

If I get first place that great..if I'm last that OK too.I still had fun with a bunch of great guys..

Am I the only one shooting just because I just like to have fun with the guys

[Irish Dave]

Celeste:

The Bylaws may not spell out the number of guns for the Seniors/Elders, however, past accepted practice at National matches has long established these as 4-gun classes. Personally, I'm not sure that makes much sense and would be worthy of serious review. However, I think that this would be an issue for the Congress to take up.

The class issue is a never-ending thorn in the rump. It's my opinion that it will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Look at the mess of classes that other groups have...and still everyone's not satisfied. An argument (and often a very good one) can be made for any class, any configuration. But until each individual gets the particular class they want, it will always be incomplete or worse yet, "unfair" in their mind.

I'm certainly not against reviewing our class structure if that's what the Congress and the membership want. But if any of us thinks that a revamping will make everyone happy, we're kidding ourselves.  Generally speaking, from what I've seen of these things, the only thing we can be sure of is that a revamping will be guaranteed to make one person happy -- and that is the person whose plan is adopted.

I serve at the pleasure of the Congress and the membership and will be happy to take up any discussion and /or proposals that come up on this matter. I'm just suggesting that this is a very sticky wicket as they say, and will not be easily, quickly or uniformly accepted or achieved.

[Advertising]

[Trap]

  Yuma, Divide your men's & women's 4, 3, 2, & 2 gun classes into traditional and open (pistoleer & originals Must be shot one handed already) you would have the PERFECT class system !
  I would bet that most who shoot Pistoleer would like to drop the shotgun. Would be an interesting question.
   Having only shot pistoleer at a national many years ago, I would not presume to change it w/o consulting those who regularly do shoot that class.

[Cutter Carl]

I think that idea get's it about as close to perfect as you can get.  1 or 2 pistols, 1 or 2 long guns, 1 or 2 hand hold.  Any powder black or smokeless.  Would be a hard system to beat.

Dave is right about never being able to please everyone but this would be very close and most all shooters could find a catagory they can be happy with. 

If my count is correct it would make 22 catagories total. 

As far as Senior and/or Elder.  It makes sense to offer something but what is the question.  Do you have just a Sr./Elder 4 gun, or offer and 2 gun, 3 gun and 4 gun or do you allow Sr./Elder in any catagory were there are 3 or more that qualify?   

[Cole Bluesteele]

Trap, et al
 
I can live with John's classes. 
However, I would prefer them seperated into Traditional and Open as you state. 
Given our present membership numbers, I feel that either Yuma's or your proposed classes are adequate.  Further subdivision or additional classes should be added as membership grows and as membership wishes these future changes made.
Regarding Pistoleer, having shot that class, I agree with you about the shotgun, but others may feel differently.

Ted
 

[jefff]

as neat as this sounds traditonal and open idea lumps 3classes into one.and the smokeless duelist now has to shoot against 2 classes of 2handed shooters and i know  they will  not be happy about it.most i believe most  will not switch to BP they will just just quit.i understand trying to make things to attract new members but my role and focus is to express views of the current membership.
 
i consider myself to be a pistolleer shooter having shot it at many national and regional shoots .so changes will not effect me personally.but i would not shed a single tear if the shot gun was dropped from pistolleer and would like to hear what others that shoot this class on national and regional levels think.
alot of good ideas are coming out here.but have to say our current class system is simple and adresses alot of issues in this sport.it gives alot  of choice to the shooter and the equipment is not cost prohibitive to still be competive if you wish to be.
we have really good organization lets be careful not to scew it up

[Cole Bluesteele]

Jefff,

What you say about the Traditional and Open split is true.  However, I feel that target size and placement along with match scenarios that are written without a lot of multiple tap and "dump" targets go a long way towards eliminating any handicap a smokeless duelist has to operate under in the Open classes.  Be interested in what our shooting members have to say about this.

Ted 

[Books OToole]

as neat as this sounds traditonal and open idea lumps 3classes into one.and the smokeless duelist now has to shoot against 2 classes of 2handed shooters

This seems to be acceptable to the Working Cowboy class.


Books

[jefff]

so are you suggesting it for originals  too books?jefff

[Cliff Fendley]

i consider myself to be a pistolleer shooter having shot it at many national and regional shoots .so changes will not effect me personally.but i would not shed a single tear if the shot gun was dropped from pistolleer and would like to hear what others that shoot this class on national and regional levels think.

I have not shot the class but I would be joining you if the shotgun was dropped.

[Books OToole]

so are you suggesting it for originals  too books?jefff

I don't understand the question.

The Originals Class shoots Traditional style.  Theoretically, smokeless powder would be acceptable if your character was from 1897* or later.

I think that some of the shooters who shoot in the Originals class would considered shooting Working Cowboy if it were divided.
(They would shoot WC/Traditional.  That would be the same shooting, without all of the research and documentation.)

Books


*Smokeless .44-40 ammunition was offered in the 1897 Sears Catalog.

[jefff]

so let me ask will the originals drop their class if we divide working cowboy?jefff

[Johnny McCrae]

Here is my $.02 worth...

Men's   4-gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's   3-Gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Men's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Men's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Men's   Pistoleer   2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's   Original   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's   4-gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's   3-Gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Women's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Women's   Pistoleer   2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's   Original   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Boy's 12-17)   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Girl's (12-17)   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle

The above looks like a good and non-complicated way to go. I believe that both of the 2-Gun Classes are very important especially for attracting new members. I'll shoot 4-Gun most of the time but like to have the opportunity available to shoot other combinations of Guns if I want to.

Personally I don't care if the Senior/Elders Class is eliminated. Also I shoot Duelist and don't care if I compete against two handed shooters. I'm in this for the enjoyment and compete with myself. In the end, I will be happy with whatever the majority wants to shoot.

[Trap]

  OK ! someone is going to have to explain to me (sometimes i"m pretty dense) why some people who belong to an outfit who prides itself on being the most authentic on the block, who do not and have never shot the class, want so desperately to eliminate the one class that most exemplifies what we are supposed to stand for?

  And to answer your question, if WC was divided into traditional and open, and Originals was eliminated, I would still probably attend the National shoot.

[joec]

  OK ! someone is going to have to explain to me (sometimes i"m pretty dense) why some people who belong to an outfit who prides itself on being the most authentic on the block, who do not and have never shot the class, want so desperately to eliminate the one class that most exemplifies what we are supposed to stand for?

  And to answer your question, if WC was divided into traditional and open, and Originals was eliminated, I would still probably attend the National shoot.

I agree with you Trap and would like to know myself. I prefer a single pistol and a rifle or shotgun. Not much on two pistol type matches though I have the guns.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

  OK ! someone is going to have to explain to me (sometimes i"m pretty dense) why some people who belong to an outfit who prides itself on being the most authentic on the block, who do not and have never shot the class, want so desperately to eliminate the one class that most exemplifies what we are supposed to stand for?

  And to answer your question, if WC was divided into traditional and open, and Originals was eliminated, I would still probably attend the National shoot.

I would never support a change that elminated "Originals".  That class is one of the facets that defines NCOWS.

[Tjackstephens]

Well, Yes I know I said on my last post I would be quiet, but!  One of the fellows that shot pistoleer at Green River's NCOWS matches did so, because he wanted to shoot his muzzle loading shot gun. He had bought the gun from Dixie Gun Works just to shoot those matches. Said it was the most fun he had in a long time. If the Pistoleer class does away with the shotgun, that guy will not like it.
Just thought I would throw that out there. I do not care, have not and probably never will shoot that class. Do like watching others shoot it though. Tj

[Major 2]

Well, Yes I know I said on my last post I would be quiet, but!  One of the fellows that shot pistoleer at Green River's NCOWS matches did so, because he wanted to shoot his muzzle loading shot gun. He had bought the gun from Dixie Gun Works just to shoot those matches. Said it was the most fun he had in a long time. If the Pistoleer class does away with the shotgun, that guy will not like it.
Just thought I would throw that out there. I do not care, have not and probably never will shoot that class. Do like watching others shoot it though. Tj

DITTO TJ
 I have a member here as well , bought the same SXS , from Dixie It's a beauty.
He'd be fine with one C&B Pistol though ..even said so.."gives him more time to help pick up empties ( Bless him ! ) run the timer, or work a table ...
I think I'd like one myself...

And NO I would not do away with originals

[jefff]

OK this my point.how do feel when a class you have shot in a long time is threatened? The smokless shooters that make up the largest shooting numbers at regional and national shoots seem to given the least respect in restructing.as rep of the reps I am trying voice concerns that seem to fall on deaf ears or eyes in this case. They have earned our respect by attending our events lets show we care even if they don't post here. THEY DO SHOW UP AT EVENTS.
As to the shotgun in pistolleer that was my personal opinion that I stated if it came to vote all  that shoot this class have a voice that will be reflected in my vote.
we have all worked hard to make this a great club in very trying times I don't want to anything that will cause a loss of membership. Come up with a system that i can present without glaring looks and some even put hands on thier guns at the frist meeting.
still your friend no matter disaggrements we have jefff