First trip to range with Armi Sharps 45-70

[cpt dan blodgett]

Will hit the range for the first time with my new to me but made in 2002 Armi Sport Sharps.
Will test a 65 grain Schuetzen FFg with Dr Pepper carton over powder wad shooting a Desparado 415 grain bullet.
Will also test same bullet loaded with AA5744 and with Varget loaded to what should be about 1350 or so FPs, possibly somewhat faster from a 32 inch barrel.

Should I shoot the Smokeless first, last or just not worry about it and clean the bore first if shot last.

[john boy]

Shoot smokeless rounds withot cleaning the bore good and then black powder ... the BP foul will become very hard.  Then your fouling control goes south

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Better clean thoroughly between ... no matter which one you start with.

Since you're trying things for the first time, make everything as "perfect" as possible.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Thanks will take some bronze wool to scrub any lead

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I doubt you'l have leading problems - at least not too much.  It's the 2 types of powder residue that aren't compatible.

But the bronze wool should do just fine.

Personally, I'd start with any smokeyless rounds you have; clean up, then shoot your BP rounds.  Are you going to try any jacketed bullets with the smokeyless powder?  If so, take a good copper solvent.


I have found that with MY Armi Sport Sharps, the factory-loaded Remington 350 & 405 gr. JHP & JSP rounds shot very well.  Better than any lead rounds - especially BP which I had PLANNED to use.  Unfortunately.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Well had mixed success with both rifles.
My experiment with the .457 roundball gallery or as I intend to shoot "Plainsman Load shoot about 4 inches at 50 yards and hit about the same place on the target.  Ball must still be rising in relation to the line of sight at 25 and starting to fall back at 50.

Shooting the 63.5 grain FFg with the Dr Pepper wad seemed to crud up the chamber on the sharps worse than on the Remington
Was un able to close the lever on many rounds.  Brushing or swabbing the chamber solved the problem.  May just seat the bullets a little deeper.

Was able to eventually hit the targets at 100 yards with both the sharps and my navy arms heavy barreled rolling block.

Was not able to get on target at 200 with BP rounds.  Wasted a lot of shots figuring out sights.  Hit the bore with a brush on both rifles.  Used wet towels to get out the BP crude and made the switch to Smokeless.

Shooting both Varget and 5744 was able to eventually hit at 200 yards and keep the bullets in the black using the Standard 200 yard military bull.  The sight laying down on the sharps does ok at 100 yards taking a 6 oclock on the bull hold.  If you stand the sight up, using the slider all the way down is way to high to shoot 200 yards.  Was having to aim at the ground at the base of the target to hit paper.  shoots about 2.5 - 3 feet high.  Had not noticed that when you run the slider up there is a notch.

Wouldn't you know, that shoots about right at 200 yards taking a 6 O'clock hold threw a 9 at 4 o.clock about 1/8 inch off the 10 ring.  Next shot just cut the x ring at about 3:30.  Rand out of the varget load.

Shot the 5744 out of the Rolling block once found the black was pretty much able to keep them in the black, but used up most of the black.  Dropped a couple out the bottom of the black.  Really need to crank in about a minute more of elevation but  I now have sight setting to work from.

Did not get any leading that I could detect looking at patches, nor could I see any smeared in the bore.  The desparado bullets must carry enough lube.

May try some 60 or 61 grain loads of BP and may also try FFFg.  Think I was compressing the powder about .250.  Some say Schuetzen does not like compressing other say it does.  The quasi good news is the standard expanding die seems to compress the powder to where it needs to be with a dr pepper wad at the same place I get enough bell to easily start the bullet.

Still kind of in exact, so I will eventually purchase a powder comressing die.

Have I found the 1 MOA load, no not even the 2 or 3.  I have found a decent starting point and can at least get on paper at 200.  Actually can get in the black.  For what I want to do right now 3 min load will hit what I need to at 300 yards.  With the remmie need to crank up about 13 minutes.  It will be interesting to see if the v with the slider all the way down on the stood up ladder will be correct for 300

[rickk]

it can only get better from here.

[Ranch 13]

Your blackpowder loads are entirely to light and thats what's causing the heavy fouling and lack of accuracy. You jumpt that charge up to 70-75 grs and watch things straighten up  in a hurry.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Well guess I will make up some next week.  Starting 2 grains more than what I shot today, 2 more than than and so on till I get to the 70 -75 grain range.

[wildman1]

Your blackpowder loads are entirely to light and thats what's causing the heavy fouling and lack of accuracy. You jumpt that charge up to 70-75 grs and watch things straighten up  in a hurry.

Now ya got me thinkin (that ain't good). Is it the extra powder or the compression of the load thats causin the cleaner burn? I can see many more days at the range  shootin different loads. WM

[Ranch 13]

wildman it's the added pressure from the heavier powder charge.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Another trip to the range today shooting varget. Sharps about 8 inches wide and 4 high at 200 using ladder sight
Remington about 8 inches and and round with soule. Do not know what kind, came with rifle, no markings visible.  Have not looked under base.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Hit the range today trying 70 Grains FFg Schuetzen.  Neck sized starline cases specific to rifle.  Threw charge from Lyman BP measure into empty case came to within 1/8 of rim.  Slowly poured thru funnel and Lyman drop tube.  Added .062 veggie wad.  Had to compress about .125 to seat bullet to 2.705 OAL.

Kinda All over the place at both 100 and 200 could not keep either rifle on paper shooting SR5 standard miltary 200 yard bull.  about 2/3 to 3/4 to way muzzle pretty hard fouling in the sharps, not particularly noticeable in the Rolling block with 26 vs 32 inch barrel.

Thinking Desparado bullet 415 grainers do not carry enough lube.  Thinking maybe a little less powder to make up the room and a switch to FFFg and a lube cooking and either wax paper or Dr pepper wads might be the hot tip.  Don't think I want to use a .062 over and under the lube cookie or wonder wad.  A .459 or .460 bullet may work better than the .458s  Next trip may try 72 and 74 grains just to see if I can get a group.

Bullets seem to stay in the black pretty much at 200 when shooting varget.

[Ranch 13]

.458 bullets are your biggest problem . .460's will most likely make you think those aren't even the same guns. But you probably better go in and do some serious lead mining before you turn those barrels into pipes..

[cpt dan blodgett]

Don't appear to be leading.  Been Wrapping a patch around a brush and then wrapping that with bronze wool.  Pretty snug fit in bore and am not getting anything out.  Bore of both rifles look very good.  Blind you kind of shine.

[Ranch 13]

Yeh lead gets that way when it gets polished.
Put a 45 cal rifle jag on the rod and use it to push a heavy cotton patch wet with puregum spirits of tuprentine thru the barrel and see what comes out on the patch.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Thanks
Will try that, need to get some turpentine as I only have lacquer thinner and mineral spirits at the house.
Have a dewey 40 - 45 jag that gets pretty tight with 2 patches on it (std GI 45).  The first time I shot smokeless got some tiny lead flakes, but nothing since.  We shall see, suppose I could go to wally world tonight but will probably stop at ACE on the way home tomorrow.  Kinda like throwing them a buck or 2 now and again.
Been looking at montana bullets
Lyman
(457677)
490*
(15)
.457 - .460
Schmitzer
(air cooled)
   
Looks interesting at .460 most of the rest are pretty heavy (540 or so) or gas checked

Lyman       Saeco     Ballard
(457132)   (745)     (Custom mould - no number)
All kinda look interesting in .459

I can get desparado 415 grainers at .460 but am beginning to doubt their lube especially out of the Armi Sport.  Can always add more lube but will have to offset with powder decrease.  Changing to FFFg might balance out.

This cast bullet thing is kinda new breed of cat with lots of variables.  Too bad I don't have a range right out the back door.  Sure would make testing a lot easier.  May just start testing everything at 100 till I get a 2 inch group before wasting lead at powder and being all over the range at the longer ranges.  Thinking 6 to 8 inches high at 100 should put me on the target somewhere at 200 if the bullets want to fly straight.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

If leading becomes a problem, buy an old Lewis Lead remover or a new Hoppes.  I think Hoppes & Brownells sell it with their own name on them.  (I suspect Hoppes bought the rights to put their nae on it.)   Mine is from the mid-70s ans the instructions show it as Lewis.  It'll work just as well on a rifle rod as it does on a handgun rod, but be careful: under severe leading, it can be hard to pull through the barrel.  In the most extreme situation I've been with, a friend who owned a gun shop/pawn shop down in Kentucky took in an almost new Colt Trooper Mk.III.  He got it for a song ... (and $100) because the owner thought he'd shot the rifling out of it.  I happened to be there at the time and my friend showed me the gun when the fellow brought it in to sell/trade.   It was SOOOOO leaded that you couldn't see lands or grooves!  He had shot 3 boxes of (old) Remington factory (he said) rounds that were FULL power .357 loads  with the classic 158 gr. lead round nose!  I'm not sure what possessed Remington to load full-strength .357s and use a pure lead bullet!  But they did.  (These rounds were made back in the 50s or early 60s - I haven't seen any lead loads in their catalogs that were above their "mid-range semi-wadcutter" power level in a long time.)  I told him (my pal, the shop owner) that I was pretty sure me & Mr. Lewis could remove that leading.  It took 27 pulls 'thru the barrel and 3 of the brass wire screens to do the job.

And no ... that scoundrel wouldn't sell ME that old Trooper - for $100, or any other amount  after I finished.  He kept it for himself, durn-burn-it!

[Cuts Crooked]

I now prezactly wat Steel Horse is writing about!!!!! I thought I had gotten a really bad Ruger Bicentennial model Security Six once, but it's problem turned out to be BAD leading from some older Remington 158 grain lead loads..............HOT loads and lead don't go well together!

[cpt dan blodgett]

Picked up the turpentine at ACE tonight - to dark outside by the time I got home to see anything.  Guess the turpentine test will wait till Saturday when I will be home with the sun shining.