OK, I'm finally going to load a sub

Driftwood Johnson · October 08, 2011, 05:36:02 PM

Howdy

I have gotten a bit lazy. I have several old S&W Top Break pocket pistols chambered for 38 S&W. I have not shot them yet because I have not wanted to put Smokeless through them. Today I picked up a pound of APP FFFg. I decided to get lazy because I did not want to be melting lube out of existing 38 S&W bullets and pan lubing them for real Black Powder.

I have down loaded the information from the APP website about not compressing any more than 1/16". I haven't sat down yet to decide exactly which dipper will do that, but I will do so shortly. Also read the part about making sure the gun is in good condition.

My question is about pressure curves. As some of you may know, I am a proponent of never using modern Smokeless powder in the antiques not just because of the lower pressure of Black Powder but also because the pressure curve is spread out more over time and does not shock the old steel as much as the sharper curve of Smokeless Powder.

So my question is, has anybody seen any actual data regarding the pressure curves generated with APP? I have about 50 nice stubby little 100 grain round nosed bullets that measure about .359. Blackerby gave me these for 38 S&W. I also have some Winchester 38 S&W ammo loaded with 145 grain round nosed bullets. I may pull a few of these to try loading them with APP too.

So. Anybody loading APP in 38 S&W for antique revolvers?

More important, anybody seen any actual data regarding pressure and/or pressure curves with APP?

Thanks

Pulp · October 08, 2011, 06:27:54 PM

OMG, the world is surely near the end!

While I can't directly answer your question, the general consensus is APP gives lower velocities than equivalent charges of the good stuff, so I would assume the pressure curve would be safe. But you know what happens when folks start assuming.

I wonder if a call to the good folks that make APP would help any?

Lefty Dude · October 08, 2011, 10:56:25 PM

DJ;

APP is a good choice for a low pressure/velocity powder. Do not use Triple Seven it is a hot sub-powder.

For your concerns with the S&W 38 load I would call APP, they are very helpful.

Driftwood Johnson · October 09, 2011, 09:58:11 AM

Howdy Again

Well, I loaded up 50 rounds last night.

Boy Howdy, Captain Baylor is right when he says in his Black Powder Subs for Dummies that APP is like various sized and shaped miniature rocks. I'm glad I bought the FFFg and not the FFg. I was using a Lee .7CC dipper. Dipping it out it was tough to get consistent charges in such a tiny dipper with the variety of rock sizes. It's much easier to get consistent charges with FFFg real Black Powder. I did my best and am pretty sure my charges are just touching the bottom of the bullets or being compressed by no more than 1/16" or so.

I hope to try a few of them out today with my 38 Lemon Squeezer.

How about cleanup? I know the website says water is good, but I would rather not use straight water on this gun.

Anybody tried cleaning APP with Murphy's Mix, followed by lubing with Ballistol?

Lefty Dude · October 09, 2011, 12:21:22 PM

I use a mixture of Simple Green and H20 50-50. and lube with Ballistol.

Abilene · October 09, 2011, 01:07:16 PM

I haven't used APP for a while, but I always cleaned and lubed the guns exactly the same as for BP.

maldito gringo · October 09, 2011, 05:46:55 PM

Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on October 08, 2011, 05:36:02 PM

My question is about pressure curves. As some of you may know, I am a proponent of never using modern Smokeless powder in the antiques not just because of the lower pressure of Black Powder but also because the pressure curve is spread out more over time and does not shock the old steel as much as the sharper curve of Smokeless Powder

You might be interested in reading Sherman Bell's article: "Finding out for myself part X" in Double gun Journal Autumn 2005.

WV Scrounger · October 09, 2011, 06:48:59 PM

Malito Gringo....I dont have that magazine...So....What does it say?

Dont leave us Hanging

Driftwood Johnson · October 10, 2011, 12:33:23 AM

Took it to the range today and fired about 20 rounds. With the 100 grain bullets and .7CC of APP it was like shooting a pop gun. No recoil and very mild report. No nice sulfur smell either. Horizontal accuracy was good, but I had lots of vertical stringing. I think the load was fine, but the tiny, thin front sight on the gun was difficult for my old eyes to see.

Cleaned it at the range. Used Murphy's Mix and lubed it after with Ballistol.

Seemed fine, I'll check for rust in a couple of days.

Count Sandor · October 10, 2011, 06:54:51 AM

Driftwood:

I've been shooting APP for four years. I tried a number of different cleaning methods, finally settled on what you might (if you want to get fancy) call a two-tier system. Most of the time, I use straight Ballistol on tight, saturated patches until they look clean, then follow up with a piece of blue shop towel to pick up any residue from the bore and cylinder (and the rifle action), then a loose patch and a rag with Ballistol to coat all surfaces. This works well on both the stainless revolvers and the blued Marlins.

From April to November we shoot every weekend, so every couple of months during shooting season I use hot water and our utility sink to completely wash out the guns, followed by a heavy dose of compressed air and more Ballistol.

The really interesting thing I've found about APP and Ballistol is that the guns clean MUCH more easily if you let them sit for a few days before cleaning. Once the residue has a chance to dry, the Ballistol saturated patch makes it practically jump off the surface. At a multi-day event, it's a lot harder to clean the guns on Saturday afternoon than it will be to clean them during the following week. My normal routine is shoot on Sunday, clean guns on Thursday morning. I usually do revolvers, rifle and shot gun in under an hour with the straight Ballistol method.

Count Sandor

Driftwood Johnson · October 10, 2011, 10:44:53 AM

Howdy Count

For what it's worth, I find that waiting a few days to clean a gun of real Black Powder fouling makes it easier too.

After a few days the fouling turns into white flaky stuff. Wipes off the gun easier than the fresh stuff.

Cookie · October 11, 2011, 01:23:38 PM

Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on October 10, 2011, 10:44:53 AM
Howdy Count

For what it's worth, I find that waiting a few days to clean a gun of real Black Powder fouling makes it easier too.

After a few days the fouling turns into white flaky stuff. Wipes off the gun easier than the fresh stuff.

Wow, you learn something new everyday.

I've been doing the exact same thing (waiting a day or two before cleaning) and feeling completely guilty about it. Little did I know that this wasn't as bad as I assumed it was. I also assume this little trick works when you live in a dry (desert) climate. $:-\$

Lefty Dude · October 11, 2011, 01:54:50 PM

Quote from: Cookie on October 11, 2011, 01:23:38 PM
Wow, you learn something new everyday.

I've been doing the exact same thing (waiting a day or two before cleaning) and feeling completely guilty about it. Little did I know that this wasn't as bad as I assumed it was. I also assume this little trick works when you live in a dry (desert) climate. $:-\$

It cuts the time in half.

Abilene · October 11, 2011, 02:18:46 PM

If you shoot APP or 777 in a Henry or Yellowboy, don't wait to clean it. Or at least wipe down the brass parts right away. Residue that gets on the frame will stain it pretty quickly (not an even patina like you get with BP). Granted my experience with this is with a .44 Spcl '66 that has a lot of blowby. Possibly a 44-40 which seals better would not get residue on the frame. Also, empty cases need to be cleaned or put into your "soakin' jug" quickly.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · October 11, 2011, 04:50:45 PM

Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on October 10, 2011, 10:44:53 AM
Howdy Count

For what it's worth, I find that waiting a few days to clean a gun of real Black Powder fouling makes it easier too.

After a few days the fouling turns into white flaky stuff. Wipes off the gun easier than the fresh stuff.

Driftwood; Does that advice count here on the Wet Coast, or in the soggy South? In summer here on Vancouver Island the weather is pretty dry, so I have waited, but in winter rain I don't think I'll wait

PJ Hardtack · October 11, 2011, 06:03:10 PM

Sir Charles

When I lived in the semi-desert climate of the Thompson-Nicola Valley (Merritt) I could get away with cleaning a day or so later.
Here in the Cariboo, (central interior) it isn't a good idea.

Brass cases exhibit the hygroscopic propensity of BP residue within a couple of hours after firing - feeling 'moist'. This means it is happening on steel as well. On the coast, I think the same would apply, perhaps even more so.