Stevens Favorite .32rf to .32-20?

[Evil Ed]

Note the latest "Handloader" issue which has some info on making reloadable rimfire cases from .32 Smith and Wesson cases and RWS 22 blanks.  I have a .32 rimfire with a sewer pipe barrel, and I'm thinking that a liner, chambered to the .32 Smith and Wesson might well be the easiest way to go, making enough cases to load with black powder and with light bullets, might make a real fun gun.  I think I'd want to use .32 long cases, though shooting black might make the .32 H&R case viable.  Maybe.  Just thinking...
Jamie

It was that issue of Reloader that got me to thinking about the old stevens rifles. Would have liked to have seen the results of what that .32 was capable of.

[St. George]

Pretty much what a modern, high-speed .22 Long Rifle Hollowpoint would deliver out of a rifle barrel, today.

Scouts Out!

[Jamie]

Another option, if you have a good barrel, are cartridge cases from Dixie that are actually correct for the .32 rimfire (short).  They are already drilled to accept a .22 short cartridge case minus the bullet and powder which would then, obviously, contain only the priming.  Adding an appropriate amount of black powder topped with a round ball (O buck if I remember correctly) provides a shootable gun.  These suckers are NOT inexpensive, but buy 10 of them, and you could squirrel hunt or shoot the thing on a regular basis with proper brass care.  As has been stated, however, the gun, even in smokeless was no barn burner.  Still, most Favorites that are sitting in people's homes are family heirlooms in my experience, and I'm sure lots of people out there would love to get one shooting.  There is at least one gunsmith in my area that takes .25's and .32's and makes .22's out of them.  This too requires altering the breach block/firing pin.  On the other hand I had two friends that went to Colorado school of trades and were told that they were NEVER to bring in a Favorite to work on.  It seemed to be a serious school policy, so even my previously mentioned idea of loading black in a .32 H&R magnum case might well be too much of a good thing.  The risk of someone, someday, putting in a magnum or even a normally loaded .32 Smith and Wesson would be altogether too much, especially if you switched to center fire.  Hence the appeal of keeping it in rimfire mode.
Jamie

[Evil Ed]

Where is .32 Long Colt brass available?  I've seen plenty of .32 S&W Long, but I haven't seen .32 Long Colt brass in years.  I could use some for my Marlin 1892.

The Buffalo Arms ad in the current issue of "Shotgun News" lists .32 short Colt ammo and brass if that is any help.

[dangerranger]

I hate to further rain on your parade but the stevens Favorite is not a falling block, but a tilting block. the only thing holding the block in the frame is the cross pins. I have a couple of the old 1915 favorites. the 44 and 44 1/2 actions are true falling blocks. the block is suported by the frame [the channel the block travels in] . the newest favorites  I belive its the 30G sold by savage has the block locking into a lip in the frame allowing it to shoot 22 mag and 17 HMR. that favorite model only  has the bolt locking  device. 32 rimfire only had the pressure and energy of out best 22lr ammo. and they just werent built to withstand centerfire pressure. if you want to shoot it convert it to 22lr and shoot the heck out of it. DR

heres my favorite Favorite



this is before it was cleaned up and relined



and after

[Cypress Sam]

In direct answer to your question, don't do it.  The bullet size on a 32-20 is .312" where a .32 rimfire/.32 Colt is .308".  As far as a 32-20 being a wimp cartridge, that's just wrong.  You can easily load 32-20's to over 1200 fps from a pistol and over 1400 fps from a rifle with 115 gr bullets.  There is no way that a Favorite action would take this type of pressure even if the bullets were sized right.  There are some Stevens SS falling block rifles that will but not the Favorite.

[Chev. William]

To all who are still looking to get a Stevens Favorite Speaking again:
1.  There is a way to get .32 Long, either Colt or RF, Brass.  A gentleman by the name of Jack Harrison occasionally auctions .32 Long Colt brass resized from .32 S&W Long cases. the current price seems to be $18.00 for 20 cases.

2.  Another gentleman in California has been drilling .32 Long Colt cases to fit .27 Cal Powder Tool Load Blanks then using Black Powder and a Heeled bullet to make .32 Long RF ammo to shoot in his antique revolvers and multiple barreled pistols with very good results.
He has a Blog posted that includes details and a video of him firing his revolver at a range.

3.  Cast bullet molds are available from Accurate Molds in the proper, 90gr. weight, the nicest one is a inside lubed heeled design that will hand reload into fired unsized cases. Also they list some 90gr Heeled outside lubed design if you like the 'mess'.

Doing a conversion to CF is possible, you just need to keep in mind the strength of the receiver and replace the pins and screws with more modern stronger alloy steels properly heat treated.

The interesting point about the .27 Powder load use is he states the Grade 3 'Green' load is strong enough to send a bullet accurately down range from his pistols.

As of August 2013 I have two 1894 Stevens Favorite Actions, a .32 Long RF barrel, a .25 Stevens Rf barrel, and some extra breech blocks to use to convert to CF so I can assemble them either way.

NOTE: for the .25 Stevens, the current .25ACP is about the same length as the .25 Stevens Short RF and about the same performance out of a rifle length barrel.  It is a Semi-rimed design so it can be used with the Stevens extractor.

Parts are available from "jack First" and from "Wisner's".

Just don't 'Hot Rod' the loads,  there is a couple of threads where the owners did try up loading the .32 bore and broke their original breech blocks.   One person made a replacement from O1 Tool Alloy Steel so he could continue shooting his 'hotter' loads.
As to the original Breech block and receiver materials; I believe from my reading that they are Malleable Iron castings that are then machined.  Welding  comments indicate that TIG welding will convert the area around the weld to something like Chilled White Iron, which does NOT file nor Grind.  Chilled White Iron Wheel treads were used for long wearing Street Car and Railroad Car wheels before the 1900's, and some of them survived to be in Museum demonstration railroads to the present day.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Ya'll might be interested in this current discussion about .32 Long Colt and a #4 Remington Rolling Block .32 rimfire conversion to centerfire:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,48910.0.html

[John Taylor]

Did this thread take a wrong turn somewhere? What would ya'll say the limits are strength wise on the larger falling block actions like the model 44 ?

The 44 is good for 32-20, 25-20 Win. or SS. Although some were made in 32-40 and 38-55 they had an extra block support with the hammer having a step to hold up the breach. If you wanting to build a Stevens in rifle calibers you need a 44&1/2. The favorite is not a very strong action, best to convert to 22 or 17 rim fire. The original 32 rim fire was loaded with 9 grains of BP.

[Chev. William]

Here is another Thought on the Stevens favorites, 1894 and 1915 models:  Reline and chamber for either .25 Stevens Rf or an Equal custom made CF round.  The Stevens 1894 is smaller than the 1915 and was capable of reliably firing the .32 Long RF factory loads, both early BP and later Smokeless.  The .25 Stevens RF used a 63 to 67 Grain bullet at RF chamber pressures.  Also the modern .25ACP round is about the same size as the .25 Stevens Short RF and is currently loaded to about .25 Stevens Chamber pressures so would be possible to use.  A barrel blank is available from "Lothar Walther" as a 'stock' item, their 23.4 inch long, 1.1 inch diameter .25ACP/6.35mm  Browning Pistol Blank. currently I believe they list for around $220.00, are modern C-M Steel so would take even jacketed rounds of the .25ACP with good life.  

NOTE: Current Rim fire rounds like the .22LR are rated at 23000psi to 24000psi by SAMMI, the .25ACP is rated at 17400psi, the .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt are rated at 13000psi to 14700psi, The .32 S&W Short is rated at 17000psi, the .32 S&W Long is rated at 15000psi, the .32 H&R Magnum is rated at 21000CUP, and the .327 Federal Magnum is not listed but is designed to handle pressures in the 45000psi range.

I do no think using the Colt family would overstress the actions if loaded down or with BP, but the chance of 'accidentally' using a modern .32 S&W series would NOT be in your best interests.

The actions may be 'strengthened' by replacing the original soft low grade steel screws and pins with modern high strength ones, even the Breech block could be replaced with on made form newer steels but do you really need to shoot high pressure cartridges that could catastrophically fail the receiver or action?  
High strength screws and pins would increase the safety factor of the action for long enjoyable use of low or moderate pressure round, and would be a good idea in any rebuild of one of these actions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

RE: possible source of cases for .32 long rounds.
"BBertram" makes .300 Sherwood cases and they are sold through "Buffalo Arms" here.  They could be cut down in length and used for .32 Long cases.  a little more expensive than swageing down .32 S&W Long cases but an alternative possible source.

Just a thought,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Update on my 1894 Stevens favorite resurrection project:

I Received the custom ".250ALRM" Cartridge Chamber Reamer from Pacific Tool and Gauge, now I am waiting for the two .25ACP head space gauges I ordered at the same time.
The ".250ALRM" is a "Mildcat" design that has a straight wall of the same body diameter and rim as a .25ACP but allows a case length of up to 1.258 inch.  This was chosen to allow 'short chambering' to use a CF case sized to match the .25 Stevens RF length of 1.125 inch case length and similar diameters as the .25ACP round (tentatively labeled ".250ALS" during development process).

I have also received some .32 Long Colt cases (re-sized from .32 S&W Long cases) purchased via Gun Broker Auction site and tried one in my existing .32 Long RF chambered Stevens Favorite barrel.  It went in stiffly for the last roughly 1/8 inch but it went in to flush with thumb pressure.  The rim fits the original RF rim cut on the barrel with a few thousandths to spare and is flush with the end of the barrel.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dusty texian]

Hello Chev. William, Have been following your post,very interesting project,the .260 ALRM. What does the ALRM stand for? What  are you going to use for a parent case? Hope you keep us posted on progress,of this little Quarter bore. Sound's like it would be a great Gallery/ Small game, type rifle.Good Luck with your project.,,,,,,Dusty

[Chev. William]

Hello Chev. William, Have been following your post,very interesting project,the .260 ALRM. What does the ALRM stand for? What  are you going to use for a parent case? Hope you keep us posted on progress,of this little Quarter bore. Sound's like it would be a great Gallery/ Small game, type rifle.Good Luck with your project.,,,,,,Dusty

The ".250ALRM" is the development label for a .250" bullet loaded ".25 Auto Long Rifle Magnum" the design grew out of a post/thread on another Forum site that asked about a 'Lengthened .25ACP Cartridge' design that petered out with out an answer several years ago.
The first thing was to find some parent case that: A) could be reformed to the .25ACP diameters; B) had a higher chamber pressure limit to add safety factor to the reformed cases; and C) was relatively inexpensive to work with.
I settled on the .22 Hornet as a good candidate as I found I could resize them using Lee Carbide .25ACP dies and an RCBS "Primer Pocket Swaging Tool Kit with an added 3/16 Fender washer to allow squeezing the base down to near final .276" dimension all the way to the Rim.  This last 'bit' requires repeated adjustments of the sizing die down, in 1/12th turn increments, and using the very top of the press ram travel with the 'Toggle Action' giving the required force multiplication.  I use my RCBS "JR-3" press.  The cases were purchased as two bags of 100 empty new brass manufactured by "Privi Partizan" (PPU) and cost about $20.00 a bag.  I sent a quantity of formed brass to a collaborator back East, 'screwed up' a few in experiments, and have about 115 usable formed cases left with twenty partially trimmed to length, waiting for a correct diameter pilot for my Forster manual Case Trimmer.
There is now two way to go with these developments:
1.  Machine the Rims to match the .25ACP dimensions, a semi rimmed design with the same thickness but slightly smaller in diameter than the .25 Stevens Rf.
2.  Leave the rims as found, except for squaring up the front face to remove the forming 'roll' of brass there.

One of the 'failed experiments was trying to use RCBS .25ACP dies to form the cases.  the RCBS die is NOT bored 'Straight through' at the correct diameter, but has a reduction in diameter at about .75" up from the bottom that swages a 'Bottleneck' case out of the parent .22 Hornet that is not usable to make the lengthened cases I wanted.

Thanks for reading and commenting on 'my project',
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Mike]

I have a Steven 1915 in 32 S&W Long, shoot fine with Trail Boss. When I first got it the guy before was shooting AP70 with a 93grn lead Round nose. This load shot very well but in my veiw was over the top so I dont use it know.

My bore is not A1 so at some point I will find a better barrel.

[Chev. William]

Cast steel,huh? Somebody had to rain on my parade. Thanks guys,figured it was probably one of those deals that sounded too good to be workable.

Cast Steel?  Almost all steel actions form late WW2 onwards used were Cast steel ALLOY then machined to final dimensions, War production just could not keep up with forged Steel having to be cut up so much to make a finished receiver.
From my reading of various discussions, I believe they are Malleable, or ductile, Iron Castings since there are reports that trying to weld on them with a TIG torch converts the metal around the weld to something so hard it is not touched with a file nor does it grind smooth.  This sounds like it is converted, by heating then rapid cooling, to Chilled, or White, Iron.  Chilled Iron cast wheels were used for Street cars and early Railroad cars due to its very long service life,  they were banned in interstate commerce around 1910 or so but some are still in use on Museum Demonstration Railroads around the country.

Update 2013OCT06: I have purchased and received a copy of Frank de Haas' book "Single Shot Rifles And Actions".
The Author discusses Several of the Stevens 'Favorite' actions and comments on receivers.
Stevens "Side Plate" of ~1888: 'Machined steel casting'
Stevens "Favorite" of ~1889: 'Machined Casting'.
Stevens "Favorite" of ~1894: 'Machined Casting'.
Stevens "Favorite" of ~1915: 'Machined Casting'.
Stevens Model 44 of `1890 to 1947: 'Machined steel Casting'.
This puts in quandary if the 'machined Casting' is a from a steel or from a mailable Iron casting.  IF i tis similar to other Stevens Favorite series designs then it would probably be of similar materials, probably a high carbon steel Alloy, rather than Malleable  Iron.  The reports of the casting going 'glass hard' around a TIG weld area would apply to either material.  A further comment that the tangs should not be bent cold and in fact should be at red heat before bending would tend to indicate th e'High Carbon Steel' as the alloy used.
Chev. William

If they are of Iron, they are strong in compression but weak in tension so treat them with the respect they deserve.  

The 1894 series and later 1915 series were progressively made stronger so they will usually stand .32 Long Colt forces, even the 'smokeless powder' loadings that were introduced before Civilian cartridge production was curtailed in WW2, but not suitable for 'HOT' loads in general.  I would NOT recommend conversion to .32 S&W Long for fear of someone using a 'Hot' Load and having the breech block come apart in their face.  With updated materials for the pins and screws, use of .22WRM and WRF are possible, the conversion to CF would make a very good .25 Stevens size cartridge of reasonable pressure loadings.  And you get a reportedly accurate cartridge and good "Pot Meat" rifle to boot.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I have a Steven 1915 in 32 S&W Long, shoot fine with Trail Boss. When I first got it the guy before was shooting AP70 with a 93grn lead Round nose. This load shot very well but in my veiw was over the top so I dont use it know.

My bore is not A1 so at some point I will find a better barrel.

Your 1915 is somewhat stronger evolution of my 1894 series actions but is still not a 'strong' design.  I am having my actions gone through by a Gunsmith familiar with the 'older firearms' and he will add modern alloy, and hardened/tempered, steel pins and action screws to give some added safety margins.

I have extra Breech blocks so I have option of converting between RF and CF through disassembly and reassembly.

I lately received your PM about where to find another barrel, and replied with the information I had on possible sources.
Good luck in you r search.

I noted in the photo you attached of your model 1915 that hanging below it appears to be a Winchester 1890 Pump with the take down feature also.  I am lucky enough to have two, both were originally .22 WRF but one was rebuilt and reconfigured to fire .22 WMR and .22WRF interchangeably using a cartridge lifter selector as used in the later .22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle capable 1890's/1906's.
Makes for an interesting activity at the Range, with the dual round capability.  Just now it seems both cartridges are in short supply so I am not shooting as much as in the past.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Adirondacker]

Best place to find it is at gunshows looking through the odds and ends of ammo people have for sale.It can be found for $10 or $12 a box.

Just noticed this post--you're absolutely right.  Not much of it around, but DAMN few are looking for it.  (I'm one of the damned few.)

The rip-off artists asking $60-75 (like those asking $80-100 for a brick of Long Rifles) ought to be familiarized with the business end of a black snake.

[Chev. William]

The slow progress to date on my 'projects' is due to having been forced into Semi-retirement by the economy and my age, I am still registered for work calls with my Union, but they are few and far between in the current economic conditions, I am receiving Social Security and Military Service connected retirement payments which just about cover my taxes and utility bills plus leave a small amount for food, fuel, and the occasional 'Discretionary Spending item'.  

The progress to date since the last report:

1.  I have turned over my Stevens barrels to my Gunsmith to be inspected and fitted to the actions on a 'back burner' as time is available that is not needed for other jobs so as to keep the costs down.

2.  I bought a two die set of .32 Long Colt reloading dies from Hollywood Engineering in Sun Valley, CA and the owner ground a Carbide sizing insert to match my chamber while I waited.  The process took the morning, adn several of my .32 cases for interim trials until it ws out to the correct match.  My total bill was $82.50, I believe that is Very Reasonable Price for the dies and work.

3.  Ordered and received 'box' of 100ea .22 Hornet empty Brass from Midway, it was listed as 'Remington' on their website but upon inspection I found it is marked "Hornady .22 Hornet".  they are all now neck and shoulder expanded to .250" Inside diameter then have had the first 'pass' through the .25ACP sizer to bring the body Outer Diameter down to about .276". this leaves the base still to be sized in later work, which I have completed on 25 cases to date, a few at a time due to the forces involved leaving bruises on my palm after each session.  As of this morning's bout with the press, I have 50 cases formed and ready for rim machining before trimming the length.  This lot of cases seem to end at about 1.390" after full length forming, down form the nominal 1.400" of .22 Hornet Brass, so length shrinkage is not as much as in my initial learning trials.

4. I have ordered an additional 83 each .32 Long Colt formed cases, and sent the check, so now i am waiting for them to be finished and to arrive in the mails, Jack Harrison said they would probably be done and shipped about the end of the month.
The remainder of the original 20 have now been run through the .32 LC sizer die and are now trimmed to between .912" and .914" case length and have been primed with CCI #450 SRM primers, then sealed with some Red nail polish left from my late wife's polish collection, then wiped with polish remover to thin the coating to just around the primer pocket and in the head stamp markings to remind me they are SRM primers.

5.  Just lately I found out my Local Reloading Store had received some .22 Hornet Empty Brass in so I took a trip to get some while it was available, I bought two bags of it containing a total of 200 Empty Brass "PPU .22 Hornet", the same maker as the initial purchased batch I used up in my "learning experiments" so I am familiar with its reforming capabilities.

Insurance and Vehicle Registrations are coming due so probably will need to hold off on any 'discretionary purchases for the near future to gather money for the payments.  This leaves me with more time than money so I will make some progress on the case forming part of the projects.

I did find 3 listed on the Load Data web site, all using 80gr bullets and Bullseye powder, and around 1.8gr to 2.0gr charges with velocity's of around 800fps claimed.  There are none listed currently on the Ammo Guide web site.

As a side, time available, I took a 'look see' with QuickLOAD (QL) software, I tried working up theoretical loadings for the .32 Long Colt for use in rifles.
Using QL with the preexisting parameters for the .32 Long Colt cartridge, and adding the characteristics of the Accurate Molds 31-090A 90gr Cast Lead inside lubed Heeled bullet design and CCI #450 SRM primer as the starting points, with the barrel length set at 21.75" (my Stevens favorite Barrel lengths).  Note that any increase in barrel length will increase the MV, decrease the MEP, and increase the percent of power burned before bullet exit.

I tried calculations for H110 powder, which I use in reloading 30 Carbine cartridges and is reportedly somewhat sensitive to burning conditions and not recommended for highly reduced charges, and found the program calculates a 7.75gr charge is a 96.1% fill in the case under the bullet and results in a Peak Pressure, Pmax. of 14447psi, just less than the Maximum Average Pressure, Allowed of 14504psi.  So this would be the theoretical Maximum Load, and would result, from a 21.75" barrel, in a Muzzle Velocity (MV) calculated at 1262fps or just over the Speed of Sound under Standard Temperature and Pressure (STP) conditions, which is about 1124fps.  A 3% reduction in the charge, to 7.5gr, results fill of 93.1% and in the calculated Pmax of 13356psi and MV of 1219fps, still above Speed of Sound at STP.  These look like they may be usable in a STRONG action firearm as they are both under the MAP limits set by either CIP (European) or SAMMI (American) Standards bodies.

Calculations for a reported usable charge of Alliant 2400 of 5.0gr using the other parameters entered,  gives a calculated Pmax of 10828psi with a MV of 1082fps. for this loading it says the Percent of powder burned before bullet exit is 57.2% and the Muzzle Exit Pressure (MEP) would be 573psi.

Substituting Alliant Unique and adjusting the charge to give about sonic muzzle velocity results in a Calculated charge of 2.7gr, Pmax of 11309psi, MV of 1129fps, and MEP of 513psi and calculated powder burn of 95.7% by bullet exit.

Similarly, substituting Alliant Bullseye and adjusting power charge results in a Charge of 2.3gr and a Pmax of 10989psi, MV of 1102fps, MEP of 474psi and a powder burn of 95.8% at bullet exit.

My experience to date with either bullseye or Unique has been in small charges reloading .25ACP and these are about twice the ones for that size cartridge; but then the .32LC is quite a bit larger than the .25ACP.

As I have NOT tested any of these loads, they are intended for discussion only.
I do know that All powders are sensitive to the loaded net case volume, so bullet seating depth is critical for the developed pressures.  
In my theoretical loadings, using a case length of .916" and a heeled bullet, the minimum Net volume is relatively constant by design.  the slight difference between the theory and actual case length is smaller than the amount I would reduce the charges for starting loads.  
Anyone contemplating using a inside lubed bullet without a heel with the positive seating 'stop' of the driving band, should also reduce the starting charges further to account for further reduced net case powder chamber volume.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Adirondacker]

I admire your determination.  But opening up the chamber to accept .32 S&W with a (rented) finish reamer would have saved you a pile of dough & a heap of aggravation.