Cast and Jacketed rounds with B.P.

Lewie Girardeau · September 19, 2011, 10:09:45 PM

Hiya Everyone,

I was wondering,
1.) Would black powder have enough energy to make a jacketed round expand, ie XTP?

2.) Can jacketed rounds be shot out of the cowboy guns with out causing problems with how well they shoot with cast rounds? ( with or with out using BP)

Thanks,

Lewie

Mako · September 19, 2011, 10:31:52 PM

Lewie Girardeau,
You can shoot Jacketed bullets, but without lubrication you are going to have hard BP fouling. I have never shot it them long enough to get "serious" copper fouling, but I suspect it would happen rather quickly because I was beginning to see it early on. The hard dry fouling strips lead badly and it appears it does the same thing with gilding metal jackets.

I have a friend who tried copper plated lead bullets and he reported he had lots of copper fouling, which you don't get with smokeless powder.

I'd be willing to bet your accuracy will go South very quickly in a rifle. You could probably make it through a match with pistols, but clean up isn't probably going to be a simple water cleaning as we do with lubricated led bullets with BP. You'll probably have to alternate water and a copper removing solvent like Sweets 7.62 to get the jacket fouling out. I noticed gilding metal streaks on the patches when I cleaned a revolver that had 10 rounds of jacketed bullets with BP through it.

Regards,
Mako

Dick Dastardly · September 20, 2011, 02:42:53 PM

Jacketed bullets and black powder don't play well together. You'd be better off with some cast bullets made from Lyman #2 alloy. The cast bullets will kill very well and have been doing it for a lot longer than jacketed bullets have been around.

Bullet placement is the key.

DD-DLoS

Bryan Austin · September 20, 2011, 07:47:04 PM

What they said! I use black powder and SGDHP but only for close self defense with my 44-40s. Power is fine but accuracy is not great and gets worse after each shot. I just hope I don't need more than five! However, I do carry my 45 now! Pyrodex-P gave me the best results.

Lewie Girardeau · September 20, 2011, 09:23:52 PM

HIYA,

Thanks for the info, I can tell you great things about what a ball cartridge shot from a M-2 Browning will do after it goes through a car

but shooting BP overhere just don't work well for the average soldier.
I have heard that if the round is to soft it will fill the lands with lead fast, also heard that if it is to hard it will act like a FMJ.
( sorta)
So the hunt is on for a hunting round that can also be used in matches that would not take out to zombies with the percussion of the gun going off.
I think I mentioned before that I'm looking for .357 loads, which would most likely be coming out of a carbine, or a bounty hunter.
Unless I decide to go early and shoot open tops ( they sure are purdy) if I do I will likely just make more than one load, 38 specials for the matches and BP mags for the whitetails. Which is what I didn't want to do, I was hoping for 1 load fits all, which would make things easier at the loading bench.

Thanks
Lewie

wildman1 · September 21, 2011, 05:22:25 AM

Leading in the barrel is caused by bullet being to hard, gas goes by the bullet, resulting in barrel leading. Loads that can be used for hunting will exceed the CAS maximum. WM

Steel Horse Bailey · September 21, 2011, 10:19:51 AM

If you want a bullet for hunting and it would probably do very well for defense, use dead-soft lead and a bullet with a big, flat meplat. (nose) Pure lead wouldn't be bad at all with BP propellant. The late, great Elmer Keith made a career shooting and testing bullets and decided that a SWC design did everything he wanted or needed. A RNFP (round nosed, flat point) as fired in typical WAS matches wouldn't be a bad choice, either - big, flat nose.

This next part is conjecture ... I have never tried it. IF feel you must use a JHP design (as shown by Saavy Jack - those look fearsome) you might consider the old lube-cookie trick. An over-powder wad with 1/16" or so of a good quality BP lube topped by another thin wad (to keep the lube from sticking to the base of the projectile) might do the trick and keep the fouling soft. Like I said, this is only an idea. I don't know from experience - I've never shot a jacketed round powered by BP. What I really can't speculate about is reliable bullet expansion, like with that XTP you mentioned. BP rounds from a rifle MIGHT push hard enough to get the speed needed to expand, but I doubt you'd get reliable expansion ... but I don't know fer sure. Modern bullet technology has changed the rules. Look at what can be done with the lowly .32 ACP or .380 from small, hide-out pistols using Cor-Bon and other specialty ammo. Sometimes the manufacturer doesn't share their "recipe" used in their best ammo and sometimes YOU can't buy the same bullet they use at all. They want to keep hand -loaders from being able to duplicate their rounds ... at 1/5th the price.

And I agree ... a round fired 'thru a vehicle from Mama Deuce is still a pretty fearsome critter! (I never shot any cars, but have ventilated an Iraqi truck with Cal. 50. I miss my Mama - but I'm glad I don't have to "feed" her! That 50 cal stuff is 'SPENSIVE!!)

Yer mileage may vary ...

Mako · September 21, 2011, 12:36:27 PM

Quote from: Lewie Girardeau on September 20, 2011, 09:23:52 PM
HIYA,

Thanks for the info, I can tell you great things about what a ball cartridge shot from a M-2 Browning will do after it goes through a car but shooting BP overhere just don't work well for the average soldier.
I have heard that if the round is to soft it will fill the lands with lead fast, also heard that if it is to hard it will act like a FMJ.
( sorta)
So the hunt is on for a hunting round that can also be used in matches that would not take out to zombies with the percussion of the gun going off.
I think I mentioned before that I'm looking for .357 loads, which would most likely be coming out of a carbine, or a bounty hunter.
Unless I decide to go early and shoot open tops ( they sure are purdy) if I do I will likely just make more than one load, 38 specials for the matches and BP mags for the whitetails. Which is what I didn't want to do, I was hoping for 1 load fits all, which would make things easier at the loading bench.

Thanks
Lewie

Lewie,
The problem is not with the hardness of the bullet, it's the lack of BULLET LUBE. The lube primarily keeps the powder fouling SOFT and the bullet won't have material stripped off and deposited in the bore. Gilding metal, cupric nickel, lead, plastic (like in shotgun wads) you name it will get deposited in rifling or even smooth bores. The BP residue builds up shot after shot unless there is lube and it is hard and rough. I've seen the last four inches of barrel on some rifles look like there wasn't any rifling because they were shooting bullets with the wrong kind of lube, or too little of it. Accuracy goes out the window and you even see key-holing.

Most of us who shoot CAS use a large groove bullet like a BIG LUBE, some resort to lube cookies or wads with lube under the bullet. Some pull a bore snake through their rifles every stage. With enough of the right kind of lube you can shoot an eight stage match without any problems.

QuoteThanks for the info, I can tell you great things about what a ball cartridge shot from a M-2 Browning will do after it goes through a car but shooting BP overhere just don't work well for the average soldier.

I can tell you that M33 Ball or a M17 tracer round exit hole on a car even from stem to stern isn't that impressive unless it hits something hard on the way through. An engine block will tear up those two rounds and give you fragment pattern on the sheet metal on the exit side. Like Steel Horse Baily I can testify a ma deuce will definitely take the go out of a Zil when it doesn't slowdown fast enough to suit the gunner at a stop and go vehicle checkpoint. Usually the driver will just sit there stunned even if not wounded, but once a driver bailed out and the last we saw of him was his south end heading north up the road.

There are actually some BP shooters in theater. At BAF there are 360° ranges in the old ordnance pits on the East side of the runways almost due East of the big DFAC. I'm not talking about the whole new joint service facility on the North East corner, the old ones left over from the Soviets on the East side. I hear rumor there is one at KAF as well. There were several shooting "clubs" that would get together during slack time and shoot 3 gun, IPSC/IDPA and "Cowboy" style matches. The only time I have ever use a slide shotgun for CAS (it was a Mossberg ...) The clubs have scavenged, made and "imported" gear and it stays with whoever the club officers are at the time. Some, but few (mainly wing wipers) have their own gear. They even started shooting BP once someone told them the fuses and bursting charges of a lot of munitions that were being destroyed had powder (even though it is usually finer than 3Fg) in most of them. Until then all commercial BP was "smuggled " in via air resupply or rotations and for some reason was "left off" of the ACL. Caps were always a problem and that relegated most C&B pistols to simple target shooting unless someone had a horde of caps.

Matches were big deals and they often had multiple discipline matches simultaneously. You had to line up a FOB taxi unless you wanted to hoof it the mile and a half around the top of the runway past the eyes of the guards at the munitions depot who wondered why you were wearing a cowboy hat if you were so lucky to have one

. Believe it or not, reloading equipment is restricted and not for the reason you would think. The authorities in their infinite wisdom were afraid it would fall into Haji hands and they would spend their evenings watching American cable TV and reloading instead of using the thousands of tons of munitions already in country or coming from Pakistan. We found a loop hole, special weapons users (such as snipers) could use locally approved Special Purpose Ammunition which could be reloaded. The clubs just "kept it" for them and set up a nice place in the corner of a shop they could use it when needed...

Quote... So the hunt is on for a hunting round that can also be used in matches that would not take out to zombies with the percussion of the gun going off...

I'm not sure what that means. BP is going to be louder and have a boom and more percussion than smokeless. At matches people always think you're shooting paint peeling loads even when you are shooting equivalent or even weaker loads than their smokeless stuff. Now if you want to shoot BP in an M4 for Zombies I have just the ticket for you. There is now a new special purpose black powder cartridge called the .405 Cowboy Zombie Whacker which feeds from any STANAG or M16/M4 magazine. It uses the 7.62 case as the base brass.

Keep us informed of what you're up to,
Mako

Springfield Slim · September 21, 2011, 08:21:29 PM

Why don't you use a lead hollow point for both?

Lewie Girardeau · September 22, 2011, 09:42:14 AM

HIYA,

What rounds are those?
Also, remember I'm new as well as being deployed.. ( just a minor kink) Other than an Army C&B and the good old flint lock I have to learn from scratch.

Lewie