Rule change, for comment : Milspec smokeless repeaters

[Drydock]

For the remainder of this years season, finsihing at the Grand Muster, the Brigade staff has decided to allow milspec smokeless repeating rifles to be reloaded AS DESIGNED. 

IE if your rifle was designed to use En Bloc clips, like an m1888 Commission, or stripper clips, like an M1893 Mauser, you may use them.  If your rifle was designed to use loose ammo, ie a Krag, then you will use loose ammo.  THis affects only MSRs, all other weapons will continue as previous.

Only general issue material, no limited issue or experimental issue is allowed.

THis will be revaluated by the command staff after the GM.  In the meantime we invite any and all comment here.  We originaly decided on loose ammunition reloading to evaluate the competitiveness of the Krag system.  We now believe the Krag is fully competitive with clip/bloc designs, and needs no such protection.

[pony express]

Good move! We shouldn't try to "level the field" between the various repeaters. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Clip loaders MAY have a slight advantage over a Krag, but most aren't as easy to cycle the action compared to a Krag.

Will this also apply to number of rounds loaded before the stage begins?(askes someone who is considering using a 9 round in the tube Lebel)

[Niederlander]

Great idea!  I know we talked about  this concept at the Department of the Missouri Muster.  I don't think the clip-loaded bolts are any faster to reload than the Krag.  (If anyone thinks they are, they need to watch Drydock reload his Krag from his double row belt!)  I would be all in favor of letting the Lebel shooters to load nine, at least in skirmish format musters, as their reload times will more than offset  the added number of rounds.  With the number of targets we use in the skirmish format, even a nine-shot Lebel will need to be reloaded at least once.

[Drydock]

One thing at a time!  The 5 round start rule remains in effect for now.   

[Charles Isaac]

Good Day Gentlemen

I have often wondered about this loose cartridge rule, because, while the charger loaded weapons have only a slight advantage in speed over the Krag when charger loaded, they are at a great disadvantage when loaded with loose cartridges.  I would say the Krag lends itself to loading with loose cartridges better than any other rifle and I did sometimes fell that I may be perceived a "Gamer" because I use the Krag and the rules did favor (unintentionally of course) the Krag.

The main disadvantage of the Krag when compared to the charger loaded weapons is in loading while moving and loading while prone due to the Krag rifle relying on gravity for proper loading of the magazine. GAF shooting tends to be from the standing position, so not much of a problem and as Pony Express stated, the US Krag is superior in smoothness of operation to it's foreign competitors.

A question I have pertains to the English CLLE. Will these be permitted to be loaded with chargers in a GAF main match, even though the modifications were performed post GAF era?

I feel the loose cartridge rule was unfair to shooters of weapons designed for charger loading. The GAF is a cut above most other shooting organizations due to our inherent Military code of honor and quality of our members, and I found this rule to be most unacceptable. I wholeheartedly embrace this change.

Yr Obdnt Srvnt
Private Isaac

[Drydock]

Charles, I'm familiar with the Magazine Lee Metford (MLM) and Magazine Lee Enfield (MLE)  Is the CLLE one of these by another acronym?

FOr now, the weapons will be utilized as DESIGNED.  IE the MLM and MLE were not designed for Charger loading but later modified outside our milieu.  So no, you could not use stripper clips for these.  However, you do have the capability for magazine swapping with these, thats how they orginaly were meant to be used, though I'm told this is a rather clumsy operation.  But considering you have 8 or 10 round magazines, it might well be worth it. (Jack?)

I agree with all your points BTW.  It must be said that with all the bad/inaccurate press the Krag has accumulated over the years (THe US Army always seems to blame its weapons for its tactical failures!)  I was not sure just how competitive the Krag was.  Turns out I need'nt have worried.

Now, if anyone could figure out a fast way to load a Lebel!   

[pony express]

Now, if anyone could figure out a fast way to load a Lebel!   

I don't think there is one.....best way I can think of is....make sure you're behind cover before it runs dry! Good thing is, it works well as a single shot, probably faster that way than most SS military rifles.

[US Scout]

Good Day Gentlemen

I have often wondered about this loose cartridge rule, ...I feel the loose cartridge rule was unfair to shooters of weapons designed for charger loading. The GAF is a cut above most other shooting organizations due to our inherent Military code of honor and quality of our members, and I found this rule to be most unacceptable. I wholeheartedly embrace this change.

Yr Obdnt Srvnt
Private Isaac

We're exploring new ground here so are making changes as we see the need, but at the same time trying not to do any knee-jerk reaction to a perceived problem and then going back to make corrections.   I instructed Lt Col Drydock that we would try this out and see how it went.  If we determine that there is not inherent advantage or disadvantage we'll make it permanent.  If we discover any problems, then we'll try to address them before or even if making any rule changes.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Niederlander]

As an aside, I don't believe the various bolt action Enfields were ever meant to be loaded by changing magazines.  Soldiers were issued an extra magazine in case the one in the rifle was damaged.  In fact, the one on the rifle was attached to the rifle by a chain link to insure it wasn't lost.  (That's what the little loops on the floor plate and the magazine are for.)  If I'm not mistaken, the chain link was only supposed to be cut by an armorer. 

[Drydock]

I've seen this mentioned in a number of places, this is a British armament museaum:

http://www.turretsandtracks.co.uk/?p=lee.metford

[Niederlander]

It makes sense to me!  (That's why it seems a bit odd that that's the way they'd train.  Officialdom seldom made so much sense!)

[Charles Isaac]

We're exploring new ground here so are making changes as we see the need, but at the same time trying not to do any knee-jerk reaction to a perceived problem and then going back to make corrections.   I instructed Lt Col Drydock that we would try this out and see how it went.  If we determine that there is not inherent advantage or disadvantage we'll make it permanent.  If we discover any problems, then we'll try to address them before or even if making any rule changes.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

Sounds like a solid plan General!

Colonel Drydock, the CLLE is a Charger Loading Lee Enfield. CLLM denotes Metford rifling and all are the wonderful long Lees. I feel a good man with one of these charger loading Lees would pose the greatest threat to a Krag shooter-heck, even I can shoot a Lee Enfield or Metford faster than I can shoot a Krag.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Talking of Lee Enfields dose anyone have a load for .303 using Trail Boss, as I'm trying to find a not so heavy recoil.

[Drydock]

Start with 9 grains of Trail boss under any gas checked lead bullet 150 to 220 grains.  You may go up a grain or two and experiment with bullet weights until you find the load your rifle likes best, but you'll get good results right off.

As the original article from the Milsurps site seems to be gone, this is a good thread to read:   http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=685201

[Judge Roy Bean]

Thanks Drydock I will try a few of each .

[Charles Isaac]

Ever see the Norwegian charger for the Krag?

[pony express]

Talking of Lee Enfields dose anyone have a load for .303 using Trail Boss, as I'm trying to find a not so heavy recoil.

I use 11gr in my Krag, and a 30-40 case is very close to the same capacity as a 303 case. At yesterday's match, I was
using a different rifle on almost every stage, used an Argentine Mauser, Lebel, and a Moisin-Nagant in addition to the Krag. Loaded all of them with the same 11gr charge, with the appropriate cast bullet for each. While I didn't test any of them on paper, they were all fine for CAS type shooting.  (My excuse was, I was on assignment to rifle testing trials)

[RattlesnakeJack]

Chiming in here a bit late .... with some observations relative to the questions concerning British Lee-action magazine rifles:

1.  The "charger loading" modifications for the MLM and MLE series of rifles, resulting in the Charger-Loading Lee-Metford (CLLM) and Charger-Loading Lee-Enfield (CLLE) rifles, were not approved until mid-1907, after the charger-loading system had been introduced on the new Rifle, Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield (SMLE) which was formally approved in December of 1902.  The modification was done to the older rifles to upgrade/update them to the new regime of things - probably as much as anything because the primary means of packing issue .303 ammunition changed to five rounds in a charger, rather than the earlier method of ten loose rounds in a paper packet.  

In view of the date of introduction of the 'charger-loading' modification to the "Long Lee" series of rifles - which significantly post-dates the adoption of the SMLE - my own view would be that it would not be appropriate to allow charger-loading of CLME and CLLE rifles for GAF main-match events, but of course it would be entirely appropriate for Era of Expansion events.  Admittedly a great many MLM and MLE rifles were converted to charger -loading, and thus are likely more readily available than unaltered rifles ..... however, if someone with a CLLM or CLLE wants to use it for main-match events, it is entirely possible to do so without charger-loading.


2. The alternative of allowing an extra loaded magazine for use with a "Long Lee" rifle is interesting, indeed   As stated on the British website Drydock linked to, regarding the Lee-Metford rifle and its magazine(s):

.... two were issued per rifle, the parent magazine being attached to the trigger guard by a chain link, the idea being that when the magazine was empty, the mag could be dropped out where it would be retained by the link, while the spare mag could be fed into place.

In my view the contrary assertion, that the issue of a second magazine to each soldier was solely to enable replacement of a damaged magazine, simply does not make sense.   The original issue of a second magazine to each man only makes sense to me if it was intended for regular use.  It was never the practice of the ever-frugal War Department to authorize and issue unnecessary kit to Tommy.  Anything characterized as a "spare" or replacement item would be issued solely on a unit basis - i.e. at the Company level or higher.  If there were a concern that the magazine design was so prone to damage that a spare ought to be issued to each man, you may rest assured that the magazine design would have been improved, instead.

There undoubtedly was a regulation that only Armourers were permitted to cut the link - and that is perfectly understandable.  (I believe it may be this factor which has coloured the opinions of those who assert - rather against the preponderance of evidence - that the second magazine was not for regular use to enable more rapid reloading.)

Accordingly, I would weigh in on the side of permitting a second preloaded magazine with Magazine Lee-Metford and Magazine Lee-Enfield rifles in GAF main match events.

[Drydock]

Good to hear from you Jack.  Yep, "as designed" would preclude the use of Chargers with the MLM/MLE rifles, though as you state, you do indeed have the alternative of a magazine change. 

The Norwegians indeed experimented with a charger design, but after 1900, and only in a limited fashion, so it would not be alllowed in the main match.   Fascinating little piece of tinwork though.

BTW  the initial magazine limit for SMRs will be up for discussion at the GM, my inclination is to drop the 5 round initial load, but still insist on at least a 2 round reload per stage instruction.  (IE, if the stage was written as a 10 round rifle stage, anyone using an MLE or a Lebel would be limited to an INITIAL load of 8 rounds)  I would rather 12 or more rifle rounds on a stage anyway.  Not to mention the skirmish stages I've shot with 30+ rifle! Love those!

[Niederlander]

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I could see a stingy war department insisting on issuing a "spare" magazine because most senior officers still didn't really trust a magazine.  Most considered them something of a weak link.  It could be that once they were in the field a while, they began to be used for a second magazine.  Just a possibility, and I certainly don't insist on it!