.40-82 WCF and pesky bullets

[Short Knife Johnson]

Hello all.

Last winter I was fortunate enough to treat myself to a pretty good condition 1886 in .40-82 WCF.  It had all the earmarks of an impulse buy: it was for sale, the price was (VERY) right, I had the money on hand... but my wanting one for almost 15 years disqualfies it as "impulse buy."  I'll just keep telling myself that. 

The bore I would say is shootable.  Dark, but clear rifling when you get a light in there.  Some pitting.  What you'd expect for a well used, often carried, but (looked to be) not often fired lever gun.  Internals are like new.

I finally picked up a Lyman mould for this rifle - their 250 grain offering - and proceeded to cast bullets from 30:1 for it.  Loaded them with 74 grains of Goex.  The combination produced avg. 1750 fps  from the with some wild variation.  Upon firing at a paper target, it looks like bullets are striking sideways. and every other way.  Disheartening to say the least.  First reaction was to have a liner put in.  Occurred to me today to try a harder alloy - either 16:1 or 1/2 wheelweights 1/2 lead.  Seems to me the original express bullets were of 16:1.  Could be the 30:1 alloy was just stripping out of the rifling.  My only BP loading with rifles thus far has been with my slow moving heavies.

Any suggestions?

[wildman1]

I'm not an expert, but I have encountered that in a 45-70. Dropped the fps about 200 and guess what, nice round holes instead of oblongs. My guess is a heavier bullet would also work. Best of luck. WM

[w44wcf]

Nice find! What a vintage piece of Winchester History!
According to the 1896 Winchester catalog, they used 20/1 bullets in the .40-82 but I strongly believe that the culprit here is gas getting by the bullet in the not so smooth bore which definitely can lead to inaccuracy.

The first thing I would try is using something between the base of the bullet and the powder charge to seal the gas behind the bullet.

Several years ago a friend purchased a well worn 1876 in 45-60 chambering. That rifle had one of the worst bores I had ever seen. Understandably, accuracy with cartridges loaded with a 300 gr 12 bhn  cast bullet was pretty hopeless with a 12"+ group at 25 yards with all bullets keyholing.

I added a .06" thick polyethylene wad between the bullet and the powder and there was a definite improvement in accuracy. Still not great with a group of 6" and the holes were more round on the target. I added a second .06" for a total wad thickness of 1/8" and there was a BIG IMPROVEMENT with a group of 1 1/4" and completely round bullet holes.

SInce the 40-82 is a 45-90 necked down, and a poly wad may be below the case neck, PSB (polyethylene shot buffer) might be the best option. Lacking that you could try some corn meal. I would suggest trying 1/4" or so between the bullet and the powder.

SInce your bore is dark and Goex does foul a bit, accuracy should be maintained for several shots but groups may open after that. A better choice of powder would be the recent batch of KIK or  you could try 5% smokeless  (4227 or 4759) under the Goex for a cleaner burn.

w44wcf

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I'm not an expert, but I have encountered that in a 45-70. Dropped the fps about 200 and guess what, nice round holes instead of oblongs. My guess is a heavier bullet would also work. Best of luck. WM

I'm not sure of the twist, but if the bullet is not stabilized, a longer, heavier bullet would likily be worse. Also a slower mv wouldn't help stability, but might improve the integrity of the bullet.  I think w44wcf's suggestion hits the mark (HaHa!- Groan!!!))

Here is a chance to try out the the process of changing only one factor at a time so the real problem is isolated.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Well, I was thinking of duplexing as a last resort.  I have a quantity of 4227 on hand and was going to do a 5 grain kicker.

The Lyman mould is the original bullet style, so I'm going to try to stick with it.  I use a .030" veggie fibre wad.  I like to stay away from polystyrenes and anything else petroleum based when I use BP.  I don't think bore condition is the major factor (once I cooled off  ) as I have a '73 with a comparable bore and it shoot wheelweights just fine.  Was hoping to use it for hunting this year.

I suppose slowing the bullets down might work.  But I'm not a fan of using fillers.  Doubtful that gas cutting may be the issue.  Bullets are being shot pretty as cast, and there is not any noticable leading.  Furthermore, there is no telltale "whirring" noise as I've had in the past with bores that were beyond hope.  The bullets may not be spinning out of control, but yawing back and forth.  Most of the oblong holes were somewhat level.  With the bores that were not usable, holes pointed in every direction.

I'll do some tinkering, and keep you fellows apprised.  Will also post some pictures of this piece when I can.  Thanks for your help.   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

No help here;

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=86

What does Venturino say?  Well:  Answered my own question.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_53/ai_n27320035/

[Short Knife Johnson]

Indeed.  Well I haven't gotten around to slugging the bore yet.  My Marlin 1893 in .38-55 that had an oversize bore so that putting a groove diameter bullet in the case would not facilitate chambering.  The barrel that replaced it is a little moe easygoing in that regard. 

[w44wcf]

Short Knife Johnson,

SInce you are using a veggie wad, you could try stacking  4 of them together, seating the bullet to keep them in the neck and see if that helps.  That will provide much more of a gas seal than 1 and should help reduce the possibility of any accuracy robbing gas escaping past the bullet as it transverses the barrel.  

I have pushed 30/1 bullets to 2200 f.p.s. with good accuracy....... but that was in a .22 Hornet.  

It would help to know what the groove diameter is as compared to the bullet diameter. With b.p. and a soft bullet that is certainly less of an issue since the bullet will bump up to fit the bore.

I reread your original post and noted the velocity. Considering that Winchester reported the velocity of their 40-82 cartridge to be 1,445 f.p.s. with a 260 gr bullet, you are waayyy over that with 9 grs less powder!  A switch to Goex Cartridge, Swiss FG or KIK 1 1/2 would bring the velocity more in line with the factory load as reported by Winchester and would be kinder to the 30-1 to 16/1 bullets.

Lacking that, you could try reducing the load with the powder you are using to 60 grs and fill the space with corn meal or cream of wheat.

I just checked Mike Venturio's "Shooting Leverguns Of The Old West" and he reported that 78 / Goex Cartridge produced 1,470 fps and 75 of Goex FFG went 1,455 with 280 gr cast bullet. 

Hopefully you will find success.......

w44wcf
 
 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Indeed.  Well I haven't gotten around to slugging the bore yet.  My Marlin 1893 in .38-55 that had an oversize bore so that putting a groove diameter bullet in the case would not facilitate chambering.  The barrel that replaced it is a little moe easygoing in that regard. 

A good idea!   Have you tried hand or pan lubing and loading the unsized bullet?  But, as Mike Venturino says, there is a limit to what the throat will accept.

No experience with this one.  I just tried out some quick searches.

[Trailrider]

The first thing to do is slug the bore. Although the "nominal" groove diameter of the .40-82 is supposed to be .403-.404", I've found most of the .40 caliber '86's, in both .40-65 WCF and .40-82 WCF ran more like .406" to .408"!  Nominal bullet weight for both was 255-260 grains.  In a .408" groove barrel, I've been able to fit .408" bullets into the chamber of a .40-65, but finding a mould to give that diameter was somewhat difficult. I finally got a couple of Old West Bullet Moulds, and went to Lyman #2 equivalent, which expands more than 1:20 tin:lead mix. The harder mix also keeps the bullets from stripping in the rifling. Jacketed bullets might also grip the rifling, but that won't work for most of our shooting sports.

[Noz]

Just a thought. If your bullets are striking in a similar fashion, you might take a look at the crown.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Should have mentioned.  Crown is A-OK.  First thing I checked out before purchase.  Bullets are fired "as cast" more or less.  They drop from the mould at .408" and are run thru a .408" die.  The .40-82 WCF as I recall was .406" nominal groove diameter.  

Might pick up some .060" wad material and double them up.  I do think my main problem in alloy.  Jacketed bullets aren't really an option for me.  I have fire about 5 jacketed rounds per year, and am striving to trim that down.  

As for powder choices, they are limited.  I guess I could try some Graf & Sons.  Finding Swiss is pretty hit and miss, and KIK is unheard of.  I just bought 2 cases of Goex this spring for the Sharps'.  Finding black powder here is The Dominion is not easy, and I find you have to preorder.  There are only two sources in Saskatchewan, and I'm pleased to say that both of them are great people.  

And... here's a picture of the rifle in question... who could stay mad at this?

[w44wcf]

Short Knife Johnson,
Nice looking vintage Winchester.  Pre mid 1890's Winchester's can have bores that vary a bit. I found this out from the Winchester guru George Madis about 12 years ago. I had purchased an original '73 Winchester made in 1882 and discovered that the groove diameter was oversized at .433".

George ad traveled to the Eastern Winchester Gun Show and I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with him there. He told me that he had slugged a number of early Winchester bores and found that they did vary in dimensions but that Winchester knew that black powder ammunition would shoot accurately from various bore diameters.

That all changed with the advent of smokeless powder and metal patched bulleted (jacketed) ammo in 1894. Bore tolerances were tightened up after that.

Mike Venturino  said that in his experience, he found groove diameters to be as large as .409". He also mentioned that using Goex powder "I found it interesting that that with blackpowder loads it often put two shots within two inches of one another, and three shots usually stayed within 3". However by the time five shots were fired, the groups were opening up to 4 inches or more."

Based on that and my experience with Goex in a repeating rifle with conventional black powder bullets (wild shooting after a dozen rounds in a 44-40), a duplex  load would be needed for continued accurate shooting. However, I found that with with Swiss or KIK, many rounds could be fired accurately, at least in the 44-40.  Graf & Sons brand name powder is Schuetzen (so I have been told) but it fouled out about as fast as  Goex did in the 44-40.

w44wcf

[Short Knife Johnson]

I just realized the pic is a bit out of focus.  Guess it is high time to put new batteries in the camera.    Idiot proof my dyin' ass!

Anyway, thanks for the input.  I've been a longtime reader of Mr. Mike.  Probably one of the great figures in the shooting world I'd say, and after having the opportunity to meet him a few years ago (and as it turns out sharing several mutual friends), I've become more of a fan.  Just an all around good guy.  I'm well aware of the oversize bore thing.  That's why I started with 30:1 alloy.

Bores had to be tightened up with smokeyless because it doesn't give the bullet the acceleration that black does.  BP moves the back of the bullet while the nose is still stationary.  It then behaves like a cartoon character and bulges out the middle is how I explain it to   ... outsiders.  

As to Graf.  I find it fouls less.  I have a Navy Arms Schofield in .44-40.  I never could shoot more than 5 rounds, and have to pull the thing apart between stages.  Same load with Graf lets it tick along all day.  Like I said, the problem here is finding anything other than Graf or Goex.  I miss the good old days when you could buy BP anywhere...   wow... I'm 35 and already lamenting the good old days.

[Noz]

I feel your pain.

KIK is working very well for me.