NCOWS shooting classes, is it time?

[J.R. Logan]

Why does NCOWS have so many classes that are just like SASS classes?  If the point is for NCOWS to offer shooters something different and more historical, why not have more classes that are not the same as SASS classes?  Out of the 10 classes that we have only 3 are really different from most SASS classes.  As has been discussed on this board more than once the average and even more than average person of the west would not have owned two pistols, rifle and shotgun.  It would be like you or I owning 4 cars, could not justify the cost for the benefit that it could provide.  It might be time to take a hard look at NCOWS class structure and make some changes for the better.  At the last 4 National shoots almost 50% of the shooters shot in a class with just one pistol and 1 rifle, might this be telling us something?

MEN'S & LADIES DIVISIONS

SMOKELESS SHOOTIST – 2 pistols, rifle, shotgun; smokeless or BP, one- or two-handed hold on pistols.

SMOKELESS DUELIST – 2 pistols, rifle, shotgun; smokeless or BP, one-handed hold on pistols.

BLACK POWDER SHOOTIST – 2 pistols, rifle, shotgun; BP only, one- or two-handed hold on pistols.

BLACK POWDER DUELIST – 2 pistols, rifle, shotgun; BP only, one-handed hold on pistols.

WORKING COWBOY – 1 pistol, rifle; smokeless or BP; one-or two-handed hold on pistols.

PISTOLEER – 2 C&B or pre-1873 rimfire cartridge pistols, 1860 1866 or Spencer rifle, hammered double shotgun; BP only; one-handed hold on pistols.

SENIOR – Typically a 4-gun category; over age 60 only; may use any of the above shooting styles.

ELDER -- Typically a 4-gun category; over age 70 only; may use any of the above shooting styles.

JUNIOR -- Typically a 4-gun category; age 12 to 17 only; may use any of the above shooting styles. (A Working Cowboy equivalent 2-gun Junior class is usually also offered at Nationals and etc.)

ORIGINALS – 2-gun Class; open to qualified Originals members only; See Rules and Regulations in Bylaws for details.   

[bowiemaker]

While many of the classes might be the same, from what I have ssen, the shooting is very different from SASS to NCOWS. NCOWS pistol targets are about where the SASS rifle targets are. We do at least have to aim the guns.

If the classes were to be changed, I would suggest somehow allowing for entry level classes with one pistol or one rifle for those who want to get started with what they have or at a minimal cost to try it and see how they like it.

The cost was a big concern for me to get started. As luck would have it, I had a windfall that allowed me to purchase the guns that I wanted. I love having more guns and getting to do more shooting. I am sure most people would quickly get hooked and want to add morre guns to shoot more but you have to get over that initial sticker shock first.

[Montana Slim]

I've worked in the "numbers" game for many years.....

Only addressing the last line: "At the last 4 National shoots almost 50% of the shooters shot in a class with just one pistol and 1 rifle, might this be telling us something?"

Maybe..but is it really that clear

My point is that I could propose a number of theories based on data from the past 4 NCOWS National matches....and, the theories might be quite supportable ...but, the volume of data and other demographic effects could skew the outcome.

Slim

[Johnny McCrae]

I usually shoot Working Cowboy. At the National's last June I shot in the Elder's Class which required two Pistols, Rifle and Shotgun. Kind of makes us old guys work a little more..... just kidding! Actually I didn't mind shooting four guns and really enjoyed the shoot. I'm happy shooting whatever the rules call for. I'll continue to shoot Elder's with four guns.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

While many of the classes might be the same, from what I have ssen, the shooting is very different from SASS to NCOWS. NCOWS pistol targets are about where the SASS rifle targets are. We do at least have to aim the guns.

If the classes were to be changed, I would suggest somehow allowing for entry level classes with one pistol or one rifle for those who want to get started with what they have or at a minimal cost to try it and see how they like it.

The cost was a big concern for me to get started. As luck would have it, I had a windfall that allowed me to purchase the guns that I wanted. I love having more guns and getting to do more shooting. I am sure most people would quickly get hooked and want to add morre guns to shoot more but you have to get over that initial sticker shock first.

As a new member of NCOWS and also one that has no NCOWS posse even close, I would second this.  As far as that wind fall, the only wind fall I see possible in the future is a tree falling on my house. 

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I usually shoot Working Cowboy. At the National's last June I shot in the Elder's Class which required two Pist0ls, Rifle and Shotgun. Kind of makes us old guys work a little more.....

One might assume (dangerous I know) that the reason for Elders Class is a result of failing eye sight, slower reflexes and a little less endurance.  This could also be reflected in the fact there is an over 60 class and then an over 70 class.  Since a lot of new folks that fit those age groups are also on limited or fixed incomes, it would slow down old folks from getting involved in NCOWS or Cowboy action shooting of any venue.

[John William McCandles]

So for the Pistoleer class would the pistols have to be rimfire conversions or will a modern center fire copy do?

Regards
JW

[Montana Slim]

So for the Pistoleer class would the pistols have to be rimfire conversions or will a modern center fire copy do?

Regards
JW

Main revolvers must be C&B.....Here's a "copy/paste" from the NCOWS homepage of the actual Pistoleer category equipment:

Men's and Women's Pistoleer: Shooters are restricted to the use of percussion revolvers, pre-1873 percussion or original/authentic reproductions of rimfire cartridge pocket pistols, exposed-hammer double-barrel shotguns (percussion or cartridge), and reproduction or original pre-1873 pistol-caliber repeating rifles (e.g. 1860 Henry, Spencer, 1866 Winchester, etc: Shooters must shoot blackpowder or approved blackpowder substitute powder in all firearms except those chambered for rimfire cartridges. Pistols and revolvers must be shot one-handed. Pistoleer shooters will shoot the same course of fire as the other competitors except that in a stage requiring more than two shotgun rounds the Pistoleer shooter would not be required to shoot the extra rounds.

As you see, the "rimfire" caliber pistols referred to are only accepted for the pocket pistol....as may be needed for main stages (at one time it was common to use a pocket pistol as an additional, or substitute firearm on main stages).

Regards,
Slim

[Johnny McCrae]

Howdy Wildman,
All I've ever shot before being eligible for the Elder's Class was Senior or Silver Senior. You at 100% correct about about those classes being tough. Some of the best shooters I've seen are in the over sixty group.

Howdy Two Walks,
You make a good point about older folks on fixed incomes getting into Cowboy Action shooting. Fortunately, NCOWS has the Working Cowboy Class which can be a big help for people with limited resources of any age group. Reloading can also help to keep the cost's down.

[jefff]

i think that the classes we have in ncows address the way most cas members style of shooting choice.while maybe not perfect they do give people alot of choice if you want to take away some classes you would have to justify it with more than numbers from one match.if other classes are needed then get  on the agenda for congress to vote on.if a simple solution would solve all considerations i would be all for it,but i do have concerns about voting for change based on ththe last election.jefff

[Ima Sure Shot]

We can not offer a class for each person's preference/ situtation.  We should consider what is the most historical  and documented,  If we are considering any changes at all. We have all read of the guerrillas carrying several (4 or more) handguns, yet we do not have that as an official class.  We have all read that the preferred weapon of most lawmen was a shotgun. Billy the kid shot his guard with one.  I was told there were no 20 gauge shotguns during our time, but upon reading for my self, I find  there were trapdoors converted to 20 gauge shotguns and issued to the western forts; one or two to a fort for the scouts to hunt small game.  We must be more openminded about what is being discussed here.  After all we do not offer a Ladies of the evening class and some would have us believe all the women in the west were of that ilk....We do not offer a Dressmaker's class,  a Schoolmarm's class, a Texas Ranger class, a Town Marshall Class, a Scout class, a Gambler class, a Shopkeeper class, a Buffalo hunter class, a Native American's class,  a Miner's class or how about a BLACKSMITH'S class (must shoot with ten pound sledge in handl).  I could go on ad nauseum.  We have the Originals class that tried to address the different individuals, but found that,"any two guns" could cause problems with targets and scorekeeping. The orignals sounded like a good idea at the time, but has IMHO been less than successful.  After all to shoot at the National or Regional level one must meet the level one anyway and to shoot the Originals class there must be at least three present.  We have now changed the Originals to one rifle and one handgun- why not shoot working cowboy?   We as a group must be very careful in even considering changing classes, one word can make a huge difference.   Celeste

[Books OToole]

  We have now changed the Originals to one rifle and one handgun- why not shoot working cowboy?   

   Celeste

Because you can shoot two-handed (cocking with the weak hand thumb*) and use smokeless powder in the Working Cowboy Class.

If we offer a Traditional Class, one pistol & one rifle, shot one-handed with black powder, then "The Oringals" class is only differentiated  by the research and docucmentation.

Books




* This is a 20th century style/creation and is not authentic.  In my opinion, this is a legal way to fan.

[J.R. Logan]

Thanks Ima for keeping us on track, some times we like to wonder off topic.  Also please to not let the words math or SASS make you go in the wrong direction.  As far as info to back this up let hear from the Clubs match directors.  If you track what classes are shot on a monthly basis at your shoots please try to break it down and let us all see what is going on out in the clubs.  I for one know that for my local club out of the 10-12 shooters that where making most of the matches last year it would be safe to say 9 shot a 2 gun class, 1 shot a 3 gun class and maybe 1-2 on average shot one of the 4 gun classes.  Now let's hear about your clubs?
   
Thanks for the info.

J. R. Logan

[Irish Dave]

Safe to say that 90-plus percent of Great Lakes Freight & Mining Co. shooters choose Working Cowboy.

[Ima Sure Shot]

If one's persona is a 90's  kind of guy/gal say 1892 or later to 1899, they could shoot smokeless in the Originals class could they not?  Or did the Originals Class change to Blackpowder only ?  Then that leaves the documentation and shooting duelist as the difference in Originals and Working Cowboy.  One can shoot duelist in Working Cowboy if one so desires, and everyone is supposed to document their kit for all classes.  The big difference IMHO is in how the scoring is supposed to be done for the Originals. Celeste

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Please look and this thread and provide commentary:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39642.0.html

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Pancho,  I think that's a great start in making NCOWS unique.

[St. George]

NCOWS is 'already' unique, insofar as it's thrust is towards an historically accurate portrayal of the era - as opposed to a Silver Screen version.

It has other issues beyond mere shooting classes.

Further discussion belongs in the 'NCOWS Chambers' so as to not get more sidetracked than usual.

Scouts Out!

[bowiemaker]

Pancho, I pretty much agree with the classes you suggest except for the dress code for "Gambler". Not all gamblers wore derby hats and I am sure some wore spurs.

[Ima Sure Shot]

Squirrel Tooth Alice wore a sweater in the picture I saw of her.  She was a pretty famous gambler. Celeste