flintlocks and cartridge guns

[JimBob]

Does anyone have a copy of "Gunsmoke and Saddleather"?There are some remarks on early use of the Spencer and Henry on page 215.I can't get it to come up on the net,all I get is a blank page.

I'm not taking the position no one had one but who and at what point were they readily available and enough of them being used that they were something other than the exception or the odd bird.What I'm trying to get at is if your persona is carrying a Spencer or Henry there is going to be a limited number of years from the 1840-1865 period in which it would be correct.

[JimBob]

William Hamilton in "My Sixty Years on the Plains" notes that upon arriving in California in the early 1850's, his group traded in their Hawken rifles for Sharps and then used the barresl from the Hawkens as pry bars in the gold fields...

   

[Short Knife Johnson]

   

I had the same reaction to a Mike Venturino article about a Creedmore Rolling Block he had bought to put back into shooting conditiion.  The aft section of the rifle was found in a mechanic's shop.  The guy's brother had tisted off the barrel to use as a jack handle.

[Ranch 13]

Does anyone have a copy of "Gunsmoke and Saddleather"?There are some remarks on early use of the Spencer and Henry on page 215.I can't get it to come up on the net,all I get is a blank page.

I'm not taking the position no one had one but who and at what point were they readily available and enough of them being used that they were something other than the exception or the odd bird.What I'm trying to get at is if your persona is carrying a Spencer or Henry there is going to be a limited number of years from the 1840-1865 period in which it would be correct.

It says that like the Henry the Spencer was available west of the Mississippi in 1863.
If you look at the large variety of arms available thru the mailorder houses of the day, and take into consideration the relatively small population of the US at the time there's not going to be any firearm that's going to be real common other than a sidelock muzzleloader of some flavor.
The time period being discussed here is extremely short and in the middle of not much happening other than big fights with the Mexican government and the Mormons.

[JimBob]

The time period being discussed here is extremely short and in the middle of not much happening other than big fights with the Mexican government and the Mormons.

Nope not much,the country increased in size about a third,the gold rush,the Pony Express came and went when they built the transcontinental telegraph,the transcontinental railroad was being surveyed,the Civil War had all but started in Kansas,thousands going over the Oregon and SantaFe trails to settle "out west",the formation of the 1st and 2nd Dragoons to deal with the Indian problem to name a few.But if your trying to relate "happening" to cowboys in this period your right,not much going on there till they got the railroad built.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

The time period being discussed here is extremely short and in the middle of not much happening other than big fights with the Mexican government and the Mormons.

And not too forget that minor little skirmish called the Border wars between Kansas and Missouri and of course that other minor conflict called the Civil War or the War of Aggression depending on which side you supported. 

[Ranch 13]

Most of what you two are talking about happened between 1860 and 65. So there we are a 20 year period that as far as civilian life (plainsmen) fairly quiet.
It was the next 20 years starting in 65 when things really got heated up.

[buffalo bill]

I agree with Jake. What if we moved the End date back to 1860, allowed everyone to carry any weapon that could be documented to the 1840-1860 West and get back to having fun instead of acting like children on a playground. I am just as guilty as many of you for trying to push their own ideas on the rest. We all got on board with this group because we share a love for this time and place. The people who settled this great land gave us the right to argue and disagree. They DID NOT say that we had to do it! If one guy wants to carry a derringer and portray a gambler and another guy wants to drive a six-hitch freight wagon full of guns, what does it hurt? As long as we are having fun and maybe learning something in the process, that is what is important. Feel free to agree with me and let's get back to having fun. If you do not agree with me , I am sorry that you feel that way. Thank you for the opportunity to speak my piece.

Chuck- I do ,in fact, hunt with a muzzleloader. I am not ,however, a great shot and therefore try to keep my shots as close as possible for a clean kill. Thanks for understanding.

"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"

BUFFALO BILL

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

What if we moved the End date back to 1860, allowed everyone to carry any weapon that could be documented to the 1840-1860 West
BUFFALO BILL

Sounds good to me!

[JimBob]

Most of what you two are talking about happened between 1860 and 65. So there we are a 20 year period that as far as civilian life (plainsmen) fairly quiet.
It was the next 20 years starting in 65 when things really got heated up.

LOL Tell that to the half million plus people who hit the trail west in what the history books call "The Period of Manifest Destiny" looking for gold,land,religious freedom and many other reasons between 1840-1865.Texas,California and 4 territories became states during this period.The only reason things heated up after 1865 was because somebody else built the fire they were using.

[Ranch 13]

Guess it's all in ones perception.The heaviest of the migration came in the 60's....
It never ceases to amaze me that when I go to town most of the highway is along or on top of the Oregon trail. It takes me about 30 minutes to travel the distance those folks traveled in a week. I'ld a thought they'ld of been sick to death of staring at Laramie Peak by the time they turned north and got a different view of the thing...

[JimBob]

Guess it's all in ones perception.The heaviest of the migration came in the 60's....
It never ceases to amaze me that when I go to town most of the highway is along or on top of the Oregon trail. It takes me about 30 minutes to travel the distance those folks traveled in a week. I'ld a thought they'ld of been sick to death of staring at Laramie Peak by the time they turned north and got a different view of the thing...

LOL You're right about the 60s,lot of em went west.That's when all them dopers and hippies took over Californy. During the period of the gold rush the estimates are 250,000 people headed towards California by various routes and ship.

Wonder if there is any record about people going insane back then when traveling on the prairie where you could see something for days or weeks and never seem to be getting closer?

[Ranch 13]

There's alot of mention in various diaries and logs about the drudgery of their crossing the prairies and how it was mostly a vast waste land. Some folks went nuts and disappeared , some shot themselves and some just got sick and died...
One of my ancestors made the trip 4 times to Oregon to get everybody out there, then turned around a few years later packed up and went back to eastern NE.
Another went to Kansas spent the winter and told the boys one spring day "pack up the wagon we're going home, we couldn't even keep the dead buried here".
Both of those fellas only owned a shotgun.

[Caleb Hobbs]

Just a reminder that this forum was created to explore the possibility of starting a group interested in re-enacting that period in the West between the mountain men era and the end of the Civil War. Since this group will include plainsmen, settlers, miners, ranchers, Indian fighters, etc., and because of the time frame involved, we'll never have a completely period correct re-enactment. There will always be a California '49er shooting alongside an 1860s Texas settler next to an 1850s Mexican grandee, all of which sounds like a lot of fun to me.

There is, and always will be as long as I'm involved, an emphasis on historical accuracy within TAPS, but we also need to take into consideration the finished product. What were the exceptions, and what was the norm. A historically accurate group will be made up largely of what was normal for that person in that time. I'm not too keen to see an entire shooting line filled with exceptions.

Caleb

[wildman1]

Near as I can tell Ya'll had an IDEA, 1840 to 1865, now it seems ta me that ya might be considerin changin the date just ta exclude a certain type of weapon. This does not seem right ta me, I don't think ya should change yer original concept just ta exclude somethin. I don't care, personaly, which weapons are used. I am just as at ease shootin a full auto as I am shootin my Clinch Mountain flinter. When ya start narrowin the dates yer gonna narrow the field of players, guess its yer choice.  WM

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
We might consider moving the period to end in 1860 rather than 1865.  Although I am sure that some plainsmen didn't return to the east to fight and some remained on the plains as hunters for the RR and mining camps, the main focus of the nation during the CW was not westward expansion.  Also the CW period is well represented by other groups.  I think that this would not impact the Spencer- Henry debate since I think both as well as the Sharps were available to the public prior to 1860.
Regards
Colt

[Ranch 13]

Caleb this may be where you're headed over the cliff.The time period is not that much different from the "mtn man" era, with the exception of some few modern technological advances.
You'll need to sort out the different classes, and what's allowable in each.
Such as what exactly is a plaisnman?
What is a settler and in what part of the country? What a settler in Missouri needed for firearms etc. was a bunch different than those trying to strike out into the eastern Dakotas and Nebraska.
Miners? the gold strike in Georgia paid off about as good as California....
Indian fighters? wasn't much going on in the Indian War dept other than the forced relocation of the eastern tribes(and most of that took place well east of the Mississippi) untill after the Civil War and the westward expansion got started. Texas rangers had their handsful, but it wasn't just indians...
Most all of this time period is very well documented in both print and picture, so you'll just need to lay down some hard and fast rules to get it under way, and then if the need arises make changes in the rules to fix the problem.

[Comanche Kid]

Alot of good, and some bad, discussion here. I think we need to define a few things here..You know, basic principles set in stone:

1). What is a Plainsman?
2). The definitive Era to be Encompassed?
3). Standards of Conduct.

I am all for informed debate, and am looking forward to this project moving ahead. I think it encompasses a very important time period, and gives all interested a chance to break off from the established norm, and be part of something New and Unique.
   With that being said, Please play Nice and give help to Caleb where You can. The Historical pieces posted here are great info, and I Myself have dusted off a few of My history Books. I have also started looking for period weapons and accouterments that are relevant to the period.. I personal will be carrying a .50 Hawken (percussion) and an 1851 colt .36. This era was very transitional in History, and hopefully we are able to convey this to others....

[Border Ruffian]

Caleb, up the ante to 1870, In those 5 years a combination of cap and ball and cartridge guns/ conversions would have been common.

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy!
I don't think the date range should be extended further.  Cartridge firearms are already well represented in Cowboy Action Shooting (SASS and NCOWS), rather this is for the earlier cap and ball revolvers and muzzle loading rifles. 
(Cap and ball revolvers are also allowed in SASS, but are extremely rare in comparison to cartridge guns.)