New Trapdoor Questions

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Hope it's OK to post this here. I posted it in the Buffalo Rifles section and have not gotten much response. Maybe some posters here can answer some of my questions.


Just bought a nice old Trapdoor. First one I have ever owned. I have some questions.

First, some pictures.

























OK.

From what little reading I have done, this appears to be the 1879 variation of the Model 1873. I looked up the SN (2181XX) on one of the on line serial number finders and it spit back a manufacture date of 1883.

First Question: How were these originally finished? I have seen some photos that seem to show varnish. There is not a lick of varnish or any other surface finish on this gun anywhere.

Second Question, related to the first question: The cartouche. Most of the photos I have seen seem to show the cartouche has been stamped in. This cartouche, which I think is trying to say 1883, looks a bit different. What I am thinking is somebody refinished the stock at some point, stripping all the original varnish off and sanding the wood down. It looks like they almost sanded away the cartouche, only a tiny bit of the original varnish is left in the stamping, leaving it barely legible. That's what I'm hoping, I'm hoping somebody did not fake the cartouche.

Third Question: What is the cartouche on the bottom, on the wrist? I can't make it out at all.

Fourth Question: Am I correct about the this being the unofficial model of 1879? From what I have read, the receiver should be a bit wider than the barrel, and it is.

Fifth Question: I believe this is the Buckhorn Sight? Because of the design I am unable to slide it left or right for windage unless I slide it forward a bit, raising it, and clearing the semicircular cutout from the round post. I suspect that is the way it is.

Sixth Question: Please tell me about the proof marks. Particularly the 'R' at the center of the barrel and the 'P' almost at the receiver. Does the 'VP' near the eagle head stand for Verified Proof like with a Colt?

Seventh Questions: The hammer has pounded the SN a bit. Looks like the trigger was pulled with the trapdoor open. There is a recess in the stock where the tumbler sits when the block is closed. Is this normal?

Eighth Question: The barrel shows about the same amount of weathering as the rest of the metal, but the bore is almost brand new. Shiny, no pitting, just a few scratches. Perhaps it was rebarreled at some time?

Ninth Question: Back to the stock finish. Plenty of deep old blackened digs in the stock, too deep to sand out if perhaps it was refinished?

Tenth Observation: Repair to the stock between the barrel bands. Typical?

General Question: I guess I am wondering if perhaps this Trapdoor has had some parts replaced over time. Not a complaint, just wondering.

I had about 20 rounds on hand, Winchester brass, 405 grain Montana Precision .458 diameter bullets, Winchester Large Pistol primers, 72.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg, .030 vegetable wad, sorry, dunno how much compression. Considering the combat trigger and my miserable eyesight, it shoots very well. I decided not to slug the bore and just shot up some ammo I had on hand.

Our range is only 100 yards, and I have trouble seeing a bullseye at that range with iron sights. At fifty yards it was shooting pretty high and to the right. At 100 yards still high and to the right. I tried compensating by holding a low 6 O'Clock hold and was able to get two bullets into a six inch bright orange bullseye at 50 yards. At 100 yards it was all I could do to keep it on the paper. No slight on the rifle, lack of skill of the rifleman.

Overall I am very pleased with the rifle.

Any and all comments gratefully accepted.

P.S. My comments about the sight are because I think it would be a good thing if I could move the sight a tad to the left for windage, however sliding it forward up the ramp to allow that would make it shoot even higher than it does now.

P.P.S. Any reference to good books about the Trapdoor will also be appreciated.

[SGT John Chapman]

The "Real or Repo" section can answer a lot of your correctness questions,....


http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/

[Drydock]

I can answer a few, and the Tradoor collector site is a trove of information to be sifted thru.

1- Normal stock finish is oiled.  Varnish is added by well meaning "Bubbas".  Do not be a Bubba!  Fittings still appear to be slightly countersunk as opposed to flush with the wood, indicating little or no refinish attempts.
2- Cartouche shows normal wear, they tend to fade where the hand grips.  That upper right hand corner sees a lot of thumb rub.  Ther are several different styles of cartouche, but they're all basicly a hot brand applied to the stock.
3- Thats a circle "P" for firing proof of the completed weapon.
4- Yes, the Model 1879 is a collectors term, referring to a number of running changes to the offical Model of 1873.
5- Correct.  And thats the way its supposed to work.
6- The "VP" and eagle head are indeed a proof mark.  The rest are inspector stampings.  The P at the barrel/reciever is an assembly mark.
7- Yes.
8- Not unusual.  Barrels were well cared for by soldiers with Grouchy Sergeants looking over their shoulder.  External finish is affected by handling, weather, and sitting in the back of a closet for years at a time.
9- Normal  handling marks, I've seen a lot worse.  Can steam a lot of those out.
10- I've not seen a lot of those, but a reasonable repair for an otherwise solid stock.
11- it looks original to me.  There should be a set of stamped in alignment lines barrel to reciever on one side just at or above the wood.

Finaly  GET THIS BOOK!  It will show you how to load ammo to Milspec, how to use your sights, and elborate on many of the questions you have here:       http://www.the45-70book.com/The-Book-3rd-Edition-by-Spence-Pat-Wolf

[JimBob]

I think the reason you aren't getting much response is that the number and extent of your questions would require a book length response.

As to finish,from the armory the stocks were oil finished.The metal parts depending on the part were "browned" ie rust blued,case hardened by one of three methods,or heat blued by one of four methods.

The "P" on the wrist of the stock in a circle is the final firing proof.It was applied to assembled rifles that had been proofed the third and final time.

[St. George]

Read also:

'The Trapdoor Springfield' - by Waite and Ernst.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

A note about the sights shooting high:  This is CORRECT.  The rifles were "combat sighted" for zero at 342 yds (IIRC...can't get at my reference book right now), which puts the trajectory of the .45-70-405 loading (standard prior to the 1880's when the rifle loading was increased to .45-70-500), about 15-18 inches high at 100 yds. The way to shoot at 100 yds is to take two NRA "B" targets, darken the 8-ring with a permanent marker, place the darkened rings touching one above the other, or cut a 16" x 8" piece of black poster board for a target.  I take some target pasters or 1" wide strips of paper in the form of a cross centered in the middle of the target.  Then, aim at the BOTTOM of the whole shebang.  You should be able to see hits on that, with the rear sight at its lowest position.  Windage may or may not be readily attainable with that 1879 rear sight.

I'd leave the rifle as is.  Bullet diameter of .458-.460" should be fine.  You probably won't be able to actually measure the groove diameter of the barrel due to the uneven number of lands and grooves.    Land height was supposed to be .005".

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Thanks very much for the answers. Much more response than I got over at the Buffalo Rifle page for almost a week.

Drydock: Thanks for taking the time to answer my specific questions. Thanks for the book recommendation too.

St. George: I will look into that book too.

Trailrider. It shot great with .458 bullets. I realize that I probably would not have gotten a real accurate reading on a slug because of the odd numbered grooves. For now, I will stay with those .458 bullets.

Thanks again for the responses. I thought I had a pretty nice original rifle, just wanted to make sure.

Any more responses gratefully accepted.

[Trailrider]

Driftwood: The only right answer is whatever works! 

[Pitspitr]

Driftwood
Drydock's answers were spot on, so I can't add a lot except that the witness mark should be a straight line across the joint of the barrel and the receiver on the bottom of the barrel. The second P is an additional Proof mark Other than the stock repair that looks to be one of the better '79's I've seen and I handled more than a few. DON"T mess with the stock, even to try to get the dings out. That stock is original and you seldom see that good a set of cartouches on any of them! You might also want to get the book http://www.amazon.com/45-70-Springfield-Joe-Poyer/dp/188239139X You might want to try some .459 bullets and depending on the distance you're intending to shoot you might want to try some 500gr bullets. By the time that your rifle was made the army had found that a 500 grain bullet would actually shoot flatter at distance than a 405 would. The standard rifle load after 1882 was a 500 grain bullet.

[JimBob]

A little more on those barrel markings from Poyer and Riesch's book on Trapdoors-

The "R" on top is an inspectors stamp.

The "VP" signifies two things. The "V" indicates the barrel has been viewed ie. inspected. The "P" means it has been guaged,the front sight has been properly mounted,the bore diameter was within limits,there were no visible cracks,seams,or rust.

The "P" near the receiver indicates that the assembled barrel,receiver,and breech block have been proof tested with a special proof load.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks very much for the additional information. I have no intention of messing with the stock. It is just fine as far as I am concerned. I will try to take a couple of photos of the whole rifle so you can see it in on swell foop.

[River City John]

Heck, you should've asked for tonight's lottery numbers too while you were at it.

RCJ

[Old Top]

Driftwood,

I have a 1884 with the buffington sights which are windage adjustable, I cannot remember if the sights on that model are windage adjustable, but you may try to flip up the sight at the lowest level as see if you can adjust for windage.

Old Top

[Driftwood Johnson]

Old Top

I cannot nudge the sight right or left while it is in its lowest position. I have to shove the sight forward, elevating it slightly so that the semi circular cutout clears the small vertical post before I can nudge the sight right or left. This places my shots even higher than I want. I may consider replacing the front sight blade with a slightly taller one to compensate for this. But it is too early to consider this right now.

P.S. Sorry if I have annoyed anyone with all my questions. I tend to be very thorough. I have absolutely no experience with trapdoors. I thought this would be a good place to start. I have borrowed a copy of The 45-70 Springfield by Joe Proyer and Craig Reisch and will be going through it to further research my rifle.

[Drydock]

Oh, not at all. 

The sight you have is the Model 1879, third form.  As you have found, the sight locks to center at the 100 yard setting, and it is a 100 yard setting.  These guns do not shoot high per se, but the sight picture taught then is completely different from what is taught now.  IE at 100 yards you would hold at the targets Feet, the whole target is to be above the sight.  it is a combat weapon after all

One of the problems encountered when shooting these rifles is the unconscious alignment of the front sight with the clearance notch in the reciever hinge.  The eye wants to align all three, the post, sight, and notch.  Because of drift, the sight is actualy slightly off center to this notch, and it can confuse the eye.  You have to learn to ignore the notch.

If you look at the left side of the sight ramp,  you will see a "B" at 260 yards.  This is the "Battle" setting, and a source of much confusion.  It is meant to be the most sutiable elevation for firing at a line of battle within a range of 400 yards, holding low as taught.   IE starting at 400 yards on in, holding low on the target, the arc of the bullets flight will be within the torso of a man sized target.   This is why the bullseyes of period army targets are verticaly elongated ovals.  Pitspitr has examples of these targets for use in our Postal Matchs.

[Drydock]

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx?catid=4&subid=24&styleid=71&partnum=book-ts&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&as=1

Link to a book metioned earlier, one of the best trapdoor books for technical details.

That is a beautiful rifle, you are lucky to have found one that nice, I'd have got a lottery ticket myself that day as well! 

[JimBob]

8- Not unusual.  Barrels were well cared for by soldiers with Grouchy Sergeants looking over their shoulder.  External finish is affected by handling, weather, and sitting in the back of a closet for years at a time.


Finaly  GET THIS BOOK!  It will show you how to load ammo to Milspec, how to use your sights, and elborate on many of the questions you have here:       http://www.the45-70book.com/The-Book-3rd-Edition-by-Spence-Pat-Wolf

No.8 Very true,I have a M1888 that has a pristine bore but there isn't a speck of blueing or case color left.Shot very little and wiped down a lot.

+1 On Spence Wolf's book.has the most extensive information on TD sights and sighting for shooters I've found.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here are a few more photos of my new Trapdoor. I had to put it on the deck and stand on a chair to get the whole thing in.






This is a close up of the stock damage between the barrel bands on the side opposite the lock. The damage is pretty deep, but I am just going to leave it alone.



In other news, the Poyer/Riesch book, The .45-70 Springfield showed up yesterday and I expect the book on loading the 45-70 cartridge to show up in a few days. Thanks to everybody, especially Drydock, for all the help.

[Cowtown Scout]

Driftwood Johnson
You truely got a very nice rifle there Sir.
Scout

[Steel Horse Bailey]

VERY nice!