Henry Big Boy vs Winchester vs Rossi etc

[FrontierFred]

I am going to be picking up a lever action for use in CAS and I am looking for some info on how some of the different options compare to each other.  I have a friend who has a Rossi 92 that he worked on himself that is VERY nice but I am leaning towards a Henry Big Boy mostly based on it being made in the USA.  For all you Henry guys, how does the Big Boy compare to his Rossi 92 or a Winchester? 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

You have made a classic error. This forum is about replicas of the 1860 Henry rifle as it was produced by the New Haven Arms Company from 1862 until 1866. The Big Boy rifle, produced by the Henry Repeating Arms Company is not a faithful reproduction of that rifle.

Here is a photo of an original Henry rifle.





Here is a photo of a replica Henry made by Uberti in Italy. Uberti is the only company producing a faithful reproduction of the original Henry rifle.





Here is a photo of the Big Boy rifle produced by the Henry Repeating Arms Company.




The Big Boy is a reasonably good rifle, but it is very different from the originals. It is a replica of nothing that ever existed. Aside from the obvious exterior differences, the mechanism inside is completely different from the originals. The Henry name was in public domain for over 100 years, so the current Henry company simply adopted the name. They claim to have a connection to the original Henry rifle, and its designer B.F. Henry, but that is not true.

I have fired a Big Boy a couple of times. The action was reasonably smooth, but I cannot get past the basic dishonesty of the company for passing themselves off as something they are not.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

The Henry Big Boy is a nice handling rife, the point of aim is real good (at least for me) it shoots either .38 and .357 with ease and it drops the empties right beside your foot.

[Mako]

I have fired a Big Boy a couple of times. The action was reasonably smooth, but I cannot get past the basic dishonesty of the company for passing themselves off as something they are not.

Amen...

They wrap themselves in the flag and use language and advertising that lead to posts like the one from the O.P.   Have you looked at the home page for their product?  Now they are showing someone with a hand on a Bible in their marketing flash page on the first frame. They also have links to the history of the Henry Rifle and really try to tie their design to the original toggle link Henry.

I guess I am writing this because I had to literally bring a  Uberti Henry to a brother in laws' house to show him the difference.  He was still stubborn about it, claiming an American made rifle was better than any Italian copy.  After I realized he was dug in I didn't push the issue in order to promote family harmony.   But, it seems some years later he's finally figured it out, because he tried to make the claim he had an American built Henry at an indoor range he and my nephew were shooting at.  The range master there told him what I had told him, then he made the mistake of asking inside at the gun counter before he left about his Henry.  I think a salesman unloaded on him (which wasn't nice, but it got his attention).

Last year around Thanksgiving we were taking the kids out to shoot and among the family guns they were shooting my Grandfather's 73 which I explained was just the culmination of the Henry design.  I had that, a Uberti Henry and a '66 there as well.  He actually listened this time.  I ended up telling him sort of what you said.  I told him his Big Boy was a nice handling carbine in an easy to shoot caliber and was great in .44 Mag for a whitetail at short ranges.  I think he wants a Uberti '73 now, He really liked the case colored receiver.  The bright "mirror like" gold colored finish looked strange next to aged finishes on the Uberti Henry and '66.  He finally came around.

I have no problem with their rifles on the surface, I'm glad they make an affordable .22 Lever Action, I just think their advertising is a bit disingenuous and intentionally misleading since they try to link the historical Henry with their current rifle.  They also have videos about the American vs. non-American goods on their site.  I would really be impressed if they just produced an American built Henry or '66.  If they did that then they would probably own the SASS, NCOWS and re-enactors markets.

I am all for more American manufacturing, people don't realize how it is drying up.  Even Walmart used to crow about how they sought out American manufactured items to stock their shelves with, when was the last time you heard that from them?  I don't expect people to buy American based on "patriotism," I expect people to buy because of greater service, value and quality.

My 2 cents...
Mako

[Shotgun Franklin]

The 'Big Boy' is proof that if you drop enough AD money on SASS anything can become legal.

[Pettifogger]

Getting back to the original question, you did not specify which "Winchester".  Big difference between a Winchester 94 and a 73 for CAS shooting.  Generally it will go like this:  Henry Big Boy, slow, not terribly reliable; Rossi 92, can be made reliable, but will never be fast; Winchester 94, slow and not terribly reliable in pistol calibers; Winchester 73, fast and reliable.  More top shooters use a 73 than any other rifle.

[Major 2]

Getting back to the original question, you did not specify which "Winchester".  Big difference between a Winchester 94 and a 73 for CAS shooting.  Generally it will go like this:  Henry Big Boy, slow, not terribly reliable; Rossi 92, can be made reliable, but will never be fast; Winchester 94, slow and not terribly reliable in pistol calibers; Winchester 73, fast and reliable.  More top shooters use a 73 than any other rifle.

more and more of the rest of us shoot toggle liinks too !

73's . 66's  and the beloved Henry

[Sod Buster]

73's . 66's  and the beloved Henry

Yup!

Got one of each in 44-40.  Also a '73 in 45Colt

[FrontierFred]

Appreciate the info!  I was definitely fooled when looking at the Henry site.  I actually handled a Big Boy earlier today and it was nice but did not seem much better than my buddies Rossi though I did not get to shoot it. 

Sounds like I should be looking for an 1873 of some kind.  How does the Chaparral Arms version compare to Uberti?  Is there anyone else I should be looking at?  Want to stick to the same .45LC as my revolvers.

[Pettifogger]

You are stepping out of the frying pan into the fire if you are considering a Chapparal.  Steer clear of the Chapparal.  They are no longer imported into the U.S.  There are no parts, no short stroke kits, and they have a very POOR reputation for quality.  The Uberti is basically the only game in town when it comes to reproduction 73s.

[FrontierFred]

Looks like Uberti it is! 
How does the 1873 compare to the 1866 Yellowboy?  I like the looks of the Yellowboy better but it sounds like the 1873 will be a better match rifle for me.

[Mako]

Looks like Uberti it is! 
How does the 1873 compare to the 1866 Yellowboy?  I like the looks of the Yellowboy better but it sounds like the 1873 will be a better match rifle for me.

That's right don't forget the 1866 carbine and rifles, they are Toggle Link rifles as well. They have all of the features that make the '73s desirable.







There isn't any practical match advantage to the '73 over a '66.  The '73s are just an improved '66 the way a '66 was an improved Henry.  The biggest improvement was the cartridge, but with the modern reproductions that advantage is removed, they are all strong enough for the same cartridges.  The '73 had an ejection port dust cover, a lever safety, different side plates, an iron receiver and a trigger group that comes out as a group with the bottom receiver tang.  None of those things offer an advantage in a match.  I have three '66s and they are my preferred match gun.  I particularly like the 20" short rifle which is historically accurate (middle photo).

I have '73s and a Henry as well, but the '66s are my rifles of choice for my Cowboy persona.  I would shoot a Henry but they get very hot about the 8th round when shooting Black Powder especially in the summer. I have put a spacer in mine so I no longer have to do the "Henry Hop," some call it the "Henry Shuffle" as the magazine follower gets to your hand.  You only need a magazine capacity of 10 for matches so the spacer works out nicely.

~Mako

[Pettifogger]

As Mako notes, the 66 and 73 are basically the same inside and use the same short stroke kits.  The 73 is slightly easier to clean as the side plates come off easier.  The only difference that matters is the loading gates.  Uberti changed to a stamped bent tab gate design on the 66s about ten years ago.  The bent tab gates aren't very strong and have a pretty high failure rate.  Fairly easy fix is to solder a reinforcement behind the bent tab to strenghten it.  Once that is fixed, the 66 is as competitive as the 73.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Well, Mako makes a very brief mention of the trigger interlock safety on the '73 that does not exist on the '66. Personally, I consider that an important safety feature. It prevents the trigger from being pulled if the lever has not been completely closed. If a toggle link rifle like a Henry, '66, or '73 fires out of battery, meaning the bolt is not fully closed, bad things can happen. That's why Winchester included the trigger interlock safety over 100 years ago. It is not a modern lawyer driven safety device. The original Henry and '66 did not have this device. When the 44-40 cartridge was invented with the Model 1873 rifle, it was a much more powerful cartridge than the previous 44 Rimfire cartridge chambered for the Henry and the '66. So soon after production began Winchester added the safety device, to insure the trigger could not be pulled until the bolt was fully closed.

Flash forward to today and the Henry, '66, and '73 all chamber the 44-40 and 45 Colt rounds, but in keeping with the historical accuracy of the Henry and the '66, neither one has the lever safety.

Most shooters think they keep their fingers off the trigger until the lever is completely closed, but sometimes they do not. That was one of the main reasons I went for a '73 instead of a '66. Plus, yellow guns just don't appeal to me.

My Henry is not yellow, it is case hardened steel, and even though it lacks the lever safety, a local smith installed a socket head screw to prevent the bolt from ever heading for my face if I should get careless and brush the trigger while I am still closing the lever.

Knock on wood.

[FrontierFred]

Well, Mako makes a very brief mention of the trigger interlock safety on the '73 that does not exist on the '66. Personally, I consider that an important safety feature. It prevents the trigger from being pulled if the lever has not been completely closed. If a toggle link rifle like a Henry, '66, or '73 fires out of battery, meaning the bolt is not fully closed, bad things can happen. That's why Winchester included the trigger interlock safety over 100 years ago. It is not a modern lawyer driven safety device. The original Henry and '66 did not have this device. When the 44-40 cartridge was invented with the Model 1873 rifle, it was a much more powerful cartridge than the previous 44 Rimfire cartridge chambered for the Henry and the '66. So soon after production began Winchester added the safety device, to insure the trigger could not be pulled until the bolt was fully closed.

Flash forward to today and the Henry, '66, and '73 all chamber the 44-40 and 45 Colt rounds, but in keeping with the historical accuracy of the Henry and the '66, neither one has the lever safety.

Most shooters think they keep their fingers off the trigger until the lever is completely closed, but sometimes they do not. That was one of the main reasons I went for a '73 instead of a '66. Plus, yellow guns just don't appeal to me.

My Henry is not yellow, it is case hardened steel, and even though it lacks the lever safety, a local smith installed a socket head screw to prevent the bolt from ever heading for my face if I should get careless and brush the trigger while I am still closing the lever.

Knock on wood.

That is great info thank you.  I was leaning towards the 1866 but I think I will go for the 1873 based on the above.  Thanks to everyone for the info.  Without you guys I would now own a Henry Repeating Arms Big Boy and be none the wiser.

[Mako]

That is great info thank you.  I was leaning towards the 1866 but I think I will go for the 1873 based on the above.  Thanks to everyone for the info.  Without you guys I would now own a Henry Repeating Arms Big Boy and be none the wiser.

Before you do that ask Driftwood how many documented or even undocumented cases there are of accidents with a '66 because of it being fired out of battery.

There are literally hundreds of thousands to millions of rounds put through Uberti 1866 reproductions every year in competition.  If it is a problem then someone should be able to cite one example of an accident.

Here's another dirty secret...a LOT of competitors disable the lever safety for competition. The majority of shooters who are highly competitive shoot a lever gun the way we were trained to shoot M1s and M14s from the prone with the thumb not wrapped around the grip. But lever gun shooters don't wrap the thumb for speed, you lever and lay the thumb along side side of the receiver above the trigger finger.  In many cases the lever didn't get squeezed and it wouldn't fire, so as I said a LOT of people have them deactivated.  Something to consider...

~Mako

[FrontierFred]

Before you do that ask Driftwood how many documented or even undocumented cases there are of accidents with a '66 because of it being fired out of battery.

There are literally hundreds of thousands to millions of rounds put through Uberti 1866 reproductions every year in competition.  If it is a problem then someone should be able to cite one example of an accident.

Her's another dirty secret...a LOT of competitors disable the lever safety for competition. The majority of shooters who are highly competitive shoot a lever gun the way we were trained to shoot M1s and M14s from the prone with the thumb not wrapped around the grip. But lever gun shooters don't wrap the thumb for speed, you lever and lay the thumb along side side of the receiver above the trigger finger.  In many cases the lever didn't get squeezed and it wouldn't fire, so as I said a LOT of people have them deactivated.  Something to consider...

~Mako

Thanks Mako.  I really like the look of the 1866 better than the 1873.  Just seems more unique to me.  Maybe this is not a big issue to worry about.  I will look into it a little bit.

[Pettifogger]

With the 66 if you pull the trigger before the lever is fully closed about the worse that you will get is a little kickback in the lever.  If the gun is fully out of battery, the hammer can't hit the firing pin hard enough to set off the primer.  If the links aren't quite locked, you can get some kickback.  However, at high lever speeds I sometimes get a little kickback even with a 73 and I have the trigger safety in mine to help keep me from jacking out live rounds at high speed.  I have seen several OBDs (out of battery discharges) and they were not caused by pulling the trigger.  The OBDs I have seen that caused injury to the shooter were from slapping the lever.  This happens when a round has a bad crimp or some other problem and won't fully chamber.  The shooter tries to muscle the stuck round into the chamber by squeezing the lever and when that doesn't work gives it a sharp smack with their hand in an attempt to urge that stuck round into the chamber and the gun fires.  Had nothing to do with pulling the trigger.  Had to do with the firing pin moving forward from inertia and setting off the primer.  In these types of cases the links are totally disengaged and the shell basically explodes in the open air.  Anything can potentially happen.  However, there are a LOT of people shooting 66s and doing so without blowing themselves up.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I hear that short stroked rifles are more prone to OBD's than stock guns, however I am ignorant as to whether that is the nature of their design or improper installation. It doesn't really matter to me as I would rather be seen wearing a dress & high heels than with a short stroked rifle.  

[Driftwood Johnson]

Before you do that ask Driftwood how many documented or even undocumented cases there are of accidents with a '66 because of it being fired out of battery.

Well, I was present at a match where a '73 that had had its safety lever removed had an out of battery discharge. The lever slammed forward with enough force that it broke. Yes, it broke. Left the shooter with a very sore hand.

No, I cannot site case and location of any others, but over the years there have been several reported on the SASS wire. More with '73s that have had their safeties removed. And I disagree with you Mako about a lot of competitors disabling the lever safety on their '73s. Used to be a lot did. In part it was because the spring Uberti puts on the lever is too strong, causing the shooter to have to squeeze the lever closed with more force than should be necessary. But there are now several after market springs available for the lever safety that make the lever safety much more user friendly. Most shooters I know are now replacing the spring and leaving the lever safety in place. It is part of the standard action job done by many smiths.

Yes, there have also been documented incidents of out or battery discharges from the shooter attempting to force a round into the chamber. Several years ago there was even a video of this happening on the SASS wire. And another video demonstrating how it could happen. Slamming the lever to force a recalcitrant round into the chamber generated enough momentum with the firing pin to allow it to fly forward and fire the primer in a round that had not yet been fully chambered. This was sometimes further exacerbated by shooters who had lightened the firing pin return spring, allowing the firing pin to jump forward with more energy than if the spring had not been lightened. Yes, we all know we should never force a round into the chamber, but that is exactly what was happening.

What nobody has yet mentioned is that with all the toggle link rifles, the Henry, The '66, and the '73, they never lock up in the solid way that a more modern design does. With a toggle link rifle, the links only hold the bolt in place against recoil when they are lined up completely straight, or when they have gone slightly over center. But if the lever is not completely closed, the links are not quite lined up straight yet. They still have a slight bit of angle to them. If the cartridge should fire when the links are still not quite lined up, there is nothing preventing the bolt from flying back from the force of recoil. Nothing except the the shooter's hand in the loop of the lever. It is pretty much the same thing as if somebody snuck up behind you while you are standing and shoved your knees forward. Your legs will collapse and you will fall like a ton of bricks.

To make matters worse, until very recently, the only thing fastening the firing pin extension to the bolt was a thin pin about .062 in diameter. And there have been instances where an out of battery discharge has sent the bolt backwards with enough force that the pin sheared. Then the firing pin extension has exited the frame heading towards the shooter's face. In the instances I have read about the hammer deflected the firing pin extension so that at least it did not hit the shooter in the eye, but it did strike their cheek. No, I cannot site place, name and date, but this HAS happened. More recently Uberti has changed the method of attachment of the firing pin extension to the bolt, exactly because of this concern. But there are still plenty of older rifles out there with the thin pin holding the firing pin extension in place.

As far as all of us being perfect shooters and never allowing our finger to graze the trigger while we work the lever, I know that I am not perfect, and I suspect that many shooters who think they are perfect may in fact not be. I have sure seen plenty of fingers on triggers while the lever was being worked.

The '92 mechanism employs two locking lugs that rise up and physically block the bolt from moving backwards. The timing of the mechanism is such that the lugs have already begun to slide into their mating slots on the bolt before the bolt is all the way home. That is one reason why the '92 is an inherently stronger action than the toggle links. But it is also why Winchester never felt the need to incorporate a lever safety on the '92 like they did with the '73. Despite the fact that both rifles were chambered for the exact same cartridges.

The lever safety is the main reason why I chose a '73 over a '66 when I bought my first toggle link gun. Also because I don't care for yellow guns, but that is a purely aesthetic decision. Plus, it only takes the removal of one screw to remove the side plates of the '73 for cleaning, with a '66 you also have to take out the lever screw and the lever.

And I really like the dustcover on a '73. Makes for an inexpensive way to personalize the rifle.