.45acp with Black Powder

[Cemetery]

So I know there's been a few people on here who have loaded up some real black for their 1911's, and I was just wonder what type of boolit everybody has been using.

I've got mine from a friend, but my 1911 can be fickle when it comes to 200grain semi wad cutter boolits.

Anybody use regular 45colt sized up for the 1911?

[Mako]

If you use a 200 gr bullet you are probably going to have to drop to at least a 14 pound recoil spring.  I have used H&G 68s and they weren't as reliable as I like.   The recoil impulse is softer than a smokeless load.  A 225 or 230 grain bullet works better and you can keep the standard 16 pound spring for a 5".  The action has to be slick and smooth, a poorly fit 1911will have problems with lighter bullets and the low impulse.

Bullet shape is important for feeding and may be an issue if you try to use a current .45 BP bullet.  The problem with a Big Lube bullet is that it occupies too much of the case.  You need every bit of space to cram every bit of 3Fg you can in behind the bullet.  I just use a 225gr Round nose that has a profile like a 230 FMJ and lube it with a BP lube.  It weighs less than the FMJ because it has that grease groove.

~Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

It may be a fluke of my individual gun, which is a Springfield GI model with no modifications.  I use 16.5 grains of Goex 3Fg with a DD 210 grain Big Lube (DD/PUK/ROAII).  It has proven very reliable.  Velocity is 650 fps.

[Mako]

It may be a fluke of my individual gun, which is a Springfield GI model with no modifications.  I use 16.5 grains of Goex 3Fg with a DD 210 grain Big Lube (DD/PUK/ROAII).  It has proven very reliable.  Velocity is 650 fps.

Aggie,
That one is on the edge at 650 fps with a 210 gr bullet.  The ROA is one I still haven't  tried.  If you do a quick recoil impulse calculation, 650 is a bit light for a 16#  Recoil Spring.  I would be happier with 750 fps for reliability.  For comparison the standard IPSC load for .45ACP for years was an H&G 68 at 875-900 fps.  16# springs were the norm.

The critical numbers are the slide recoil impulse.  If we assume the same slide mass and springs we can look just at the momentum that is created by the bullet weight at a known velocity.  There is a slight difference between  the acceleration rate of BP and smokeless but we will ignore it for now (BP is a slower ramp).

Using the original 230gr FMJ at 850 fps as the baseline we get these results:



Note the 185 gr SWC Traditional Bullseye load has an impulse of 71% of the baseline 230 gr FMJ load.  Colt sets up the Gold Cup to shoot the 185 grain load before it leaves the factory and they supply two springs.  A 16 # spring for the 230 gr load and a 13 # for the 185 gr.  This is a respected combination that was developed over decades of use by target shooters.  This is the combination developed by the AMU and used by all of the military shooting teams.  They have learned that an impulse of 71% requires a 13# spring to be reliable.  Your ROA load has less than a 70% impulse and the Bullseye shooters think a 13# spring is called for with a load greater than yours.  I think you are going to have reliability problems.  I have heard Bullseye shooters (or IPSC shooters shooting low impulse loads)  say the same thing until they started having problems, then they became converts...

I have shot non-cowboy matches (to prove it could be done) with the 200 gr H&G 68 and a full case of powder and little compression, but I kept the pistol clean between stages.  About two years ago when I tried it again I settled on 17.0-18.0 grains of 3Fg behind that 200 gr bullet and it was still a bit iffy if I shoot weak hand with limp wrist.  That's my reliability standard.

I switched to the H&G 34 which is a 225 grain bullet that mimics the profile of the 230 FMJ and it is very reliable.  I use 17.5 gr of 3Fg in that load it has  good compression, I can still use a taper crimp die and the bullet won't back out under recoil.

The 225 grain bullet is a mild load, it's only about 700 fps and it is a full case.  The .45 ACP case was never designed for BP or the big groove bullets.  I can get another full grain of powder under my bullets than you can because they don't stick as far into the case, the ROA eats up case capacity.  The H&G 34 works well, it has a big enough lube groove to run a Wild Bunch match.  Here are some pictures:



~Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

Watch the CC for an article by Pukin' Dog on this very subject.  Coming soon to mailboxes.

DD-DLoS

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

I have absolutely no doubt that you are correct, and I may well have a situation that is unusual.  I did buy the pistol used, and it is possible the spring was replaced, but I doubt it.  I fired a 100 round string with my load (no cleaning) and experienced zero failures.  I only chronographed it a couple of weeks ago, and have to admit I was surprised that it functioned at that velocity.  But what can I say - it works!  

I do think that the next time I load some BP ammo for it I will up the powder charge.  The 16.5 grains is minimal compression, so I should be able to get a little more in the case.  It'll make an interesting experiment.

FWIW, my 16.5 grains is actual weight, not a volume measurement.

[Cemetery]

If you use a 200 gr bullet you are probably going to have to drop to at least a 14 pound recoil spring.  I have used H&G 68s and they weren't as reliable as I like.   The recoil impulse is softer than a smokeless load.  A 225 or 230 grain bullet works better and you can keep the standard 16 pound spring for a 5".  The action has to be slick and smooth, a poorly fit 1911will have problems with lighter bullets and the low impulse.

Bullet shape is important for feeding and may be an issue if you try to use a current .45 BP bullet.  The problem with a Big Lube bullet is that it occupies too much of the case.  You need every bit of space to cram every bit of 3Fg you can in behind the bullet.  I just use a 225gr Round nose that has a profile like a 230 FMJ and lube it with a BP lube.  It weighs less than the FMJ because it has that grease groove.

~Mako

I too use BP in a Springfield GI45, with the stock 16lb spring, only modifications I did was to polish the feed ramp and chamber mouth, since I was having trouble at times feeding smokeless 230g ammo.

But if I gather what's happening in this thread, if I go to a larger boolit, I'll have less room in the case for black, and in that instance I would need to change to a lighter recoil spring.

Is there a commercial source for casted 225g boolits of which you speak?  I don't cast, and don't have space to start up, and what mold are you using for said boolit?

And besides CAS/WB shooting, since I've started up USPSA once a month (fills in a weekend since we lost a CAS club this year ), I've been doing Single Stack Major with factory rounds till I start rollin' my own, and am thinking of going Minor with real black, but was wondering about anybody's thoughts with using magnum primers in this instance.

[Springfield Slim]

I use the old 45 Colt bullet the 454190 in my 1916 Colt. The heavier bullet works fine and the pointy nose feeds well. It doesn't hold lots of powder but it smokes and roars just fine. And it has no problem with knockdown targets.

[Fingers McGee]

Just on a lark a year or so ago, I loaded up about 200 rounds of 160, 200, and 250 grain bullets with T7, Pinnacle and fffg Grafs (20 rounds each loading for each bullet) and ran them through my AMT Hardballer.  Surprizingly enough, they all fed through it without a hickup.  The two stovepipes I did have were cause I started limp wristing it towards the end of the range session.

[Paladin UK]

Fer Fingers.......

    limp wristing   

At the range too!!

Paladin (Whuts kinda shocked  ) UK

[Mako]

Just on a lark a year or so ago, I loaded up about 200 rounds of 160, 200, and 250 grain bullets with T7, Pinnacle and fffg Grafs (20 rounds each loading for each bullet) and ran them through my AMT Hardballer.  Surprizingly enough, they all fed through it without a hickup.  The two stovepipes I did have were cause I started limp wristing it towards the end of the range session.

Yep,
That is the dividing line between a fully reliable 1911 load and one that works when everything is perking along...Get one you can limp wrist with your weak hand and you have a load that won't let you down.  It's amazing the range of loads that will work most of the time in a 1911.  With strong two handed grips a lot will function.

We figured out how to make a .45 or other caliber reliable years ago when we had some smaller women shooters who would get stove pipes and failures to feed when they were shooting the required weak hand with no support on some stages.  I figured it out using my wife who is a small shooter and the pistols that were returned for trouble shooting.  I finally found if I could limp wrist it with my weak hand then they could make it work weak hand.  It drove me nuts until one of them finally told us they had two failures on one stage that was weak hand.

~Mako

[Mako]

Cemetery,
My buddy had those and I sent him some of my lube but he used something he had with added Beeswax because he had it in sticks already.  I don't know when he last cast any of those, he told me he had a couple of hundred, it turned out it was under 200.  

The mold is an actual  Hensley & Gibbs #34 which was supposed to cast at 230 gr, but a lot of them cast at 225gr in the bevel base version.  Almost any "230" RN will work fine.  H&G was bought out by Ballisti-Cast and the HG34 is now called the #634.  He doesn't cast commercially and I doubt he would have even cast those for me because he told me to come up to visit him and cast them myself if I want more.  I don't think he would send me the mold, because they are basically collectable if they are the original H&G molds.  There are several copies of the mold and really any RN will work, just try to find a 230 gr.

Mark probably has a 230 gr .45 RN mold, ask him.  Even though he shoots his 45190 bullet in his .45 Auto, he might have a .45 ACP bullet.  I know he has bullets and balls not listed on his site.  Send him an email or call him.  You know who he is don't you?  We know him as Springfield Slim on this site.
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Mark would be my first choice.

There are others that do BP lube bullets and have a 230 gr .45 RN

http://www.cheycast.com/catalog.htm

Contact them and ask for their 230gr .45 RN with BP Lube.

http://www.alphabravobullets.com/products/index.php?product=26

They will do BP (they call it soft lube) on request but you have to wait 2 to 3 weeks for them to produce them.

http://www.tru-cast.com/

The guys at Tru-Cast  do BP lubed bullets I ended up with some .38s that were shorter than I needed that came from them.  They would probably do BP lube on a .45 230gr.

http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustompages/products.asp?s=0&categoryid=22&searchbyvendor=&Page=2

Meister was  even doing SPG lubed bullets, they just added a "SPG" prefix to their regular offerings.

[Mako]

But if I gather what's happening in this thread, if I go to a larger boolit, I'll have less room in the case for black, and in that instance I would need to change to a lighter recoil spring.

Cemetery,
I forgot to address this point.

First of all always remember this; within reason, the heavier bullet is that you use, the heavier the mainspring you can run.

Look at the 250 grain bullet Springfield Slim is using above, that is a classic example of going heavier, rather than going faster.

Be careful considering case capacity too much, it's not a one-to-one trade of case capacity for velocity.  The heavier bullets are actually more efficient with BP and you will find the velocities don't climb much with a lighter bullet and the same amount of powder.  If you take 10 different .45 ACP bullets (not big lubes) and set them side by side you will find they have almost the same amount of bullet intended to be inside the case.

Slide impulse is a product of momentum which is mass time velocity (I turned it into pounds at acceleration we have here on this planet...)  Look at the chart I posted, see the impulse for Aggie Desperado's ROA at 650 fps?  He can probably get another grain in and move the impulse up to 700 fps or more (which I didn't show) I showed 750 fps as being the "ideal" he can try for. Based on my experience with 1911s I'd say that 80% of the baseline impulse is the minimum I would recommend.

To put this in easy to understand terms, if you take the 225 gr bullet which only weighs 15 grains more than the 210 gr ROA and push it at Aggie's 650 fps it would get you half way to the 80% number, it is 75% of the baseline.  Mass is very important when it comes to momentum.  For years we have been "programmed" to look at velocity because that is how terminal ballistics are usually evaluated by the writers.  The exception has been silhouette shooters who had to topple a 40 lb. Ram and that is done with momentum.  People shooting high velocity low mass bullets found the energy was converted into heat and projectile deformation instead of moving that steel plate.  You're moving steel when you cycle that slide.

~Mako

[Springfield Slim]

Actually I do have a mould for a 230 grain RN for 45 ACP. Look up Lyman 452374 and this is an almost exact copy, maybe  being just a bit pointier than the pictures show. Works great in my 45 on those rare occasions when I shoot smokeless.
  OK, I found an old pic of one of my 452374 copy bullet. Looks just like a jacketed ball round with out the jacket.

[Fingers McGee]

Fer Fingers.......
At the range too!!

Paladin (Whuts kinda shocked   ) UK

Hey.........................................................  I was gettin tard.  

I had put almost 200 rounds through the thing before it stove piped a couple.  Mayhaps it was just getting a little sticky from all the BP fouling and wasn't none of my fault afterall.  Besides, I'm not as spry as I used to be.  

[wildman1]

Hensley & Gibbs, 45acp #130, 185g 4 cav. WM

[Mako]

Hensley & Gibbs, 45acp #130, 185g 4 cav. WM

WM,
Have you successfully run BP loads with those bullets without a problem?

HG 130 type bullets and others like them are definitely popular short Bullseye bullets, but they require a pistol set up for lightweight bullets and almost always magazines with "Wadcutter" lip forms.

The "standard" spring for 185 gr wadcutter target loads is a 13# spring, is that the spring you are running?

In the action shooting sports they called any of the 185 gr SWC bullets "alibi bullets." The fact they were prone to stoppages was known since the lighter bullets began being used in "National Match" Bullseye matches.  Until post WWII, most people shot a revolver for the centerfire portion of the matches and used 1911 only for the .45 portion.  To be competitive in the centerfire portion they began using lighter bullets and specially tuned 1911s, Colt's actually began producing National Match 1911s in the early 30's specifically for the Hard Ball portion.  The Army's team was using tuned Colt revolvers in .38 Spl I know as late as 1947 because I have a team picture with an old instructor of mine who was their armorer.

In the '40s with the rise of centerfire shooting with the 1911 instead of the traditional revolvers the HG 68 200gr SWC was designed for one reason, and that was to have the nose of the bullet hit the ramp where a "ball" round would hit.  It was in many ways a 185 SWC with the nose lengthened to hit the ramp.

In response to those wanting less recoil, H&G also made a 155 gr long nose SWC which was just a #68 with a reduced diameter ogive, It still hit the ramp at about the same spot but it never was that popular because the light weight required a 10# spring with Bullseye loads and then you had potential feeding problems with a tight pistol.

Some IPSC shooters did use the 155gr SWCs but cranked up from 1130 to 1160fps in the 80s when they first started putting comps on .45s.  You need to cut the bullet mass and increase the available gas and pressure to make a compensator work well.  Then Charlie Kelsey came along and put ramps on Gammons which made .38 Supers capable of high pressure loads without rupturing the unsupported case.  Then Irv Stone started offering the ramped barrels to everyone and the rest is history.  Almost everyone moved to .38 Super for "Unlimited" or Open Class.

You can trade spring rate and force for bullet weight, but with any fouling (like you will get with BP) a 1911 won't be as reliable with a light spring.  Recently even I switched away from my old friend the HG 68 to the 225-230gr bullets for BP, and that is almost heretical on my part. As a side note, H&G made a #68(S) type that designates a "special" weight. There was one that ran about 230 gr but it eats up case capacity due to the longer driving bands.  Technically a "standard" Bevel Base #68 was a #68BB, a #68 didn't have the bevel base.  They had codes for variations in driving band lengths etc.

I don't know if anyone makes a copy of the #68BBS type mold now, but my buddy who is the H&G collector has an original that throws a 235gr bullet with wheel weights.  That form and weight is great with smokeless because you have excess case capacity but it would probably be anemic with BP. Think about it, the mass has to go somewhere.  You have to maintain the same OAL and you have reduced the geometry on the ogive, it has to go to the rear.  This is the same problem you have with the ROA bullet.  The lead removed from that Big Lube groove went somewhere, and that was to the rear.

If you are going to shoot BP in a 1911 then you need to look good and not make people shake their heads about crazies trying to make a 1911 work with BP if your pistol has troubles.  The best way to assure reliability is to use a bullet around 230 gr.  I'm serious, I was shooting BP in .45s before Wild Bunch Matches ever existed, I did it in a couple of IDPA matches a long time ago to prove you could shoot BP in a .45.  It had been an ongoing debate as to whether you could have had semiautomatic weapons with BP. But it's cool and people do notice it...it just adds another dimension to the Black Arts.

~Mako

[wildman1]

Mako, I don't own that mold. I don't know anything about collectible molds. However, a couple of days before I read your post about H&G molds a friend called me and told me that he had  been given a number of molds and emailed me a list. On that list was that H&G. When I read your post I told him to hang on to it as I would try to find out more about it. Any help you could give me in that regard would be more than welcome. Thanks WM

[Mako]

WM,
I'd only get it if you were a 2700 shooter, which I'm assuming you're not.  There isn't anything special about the 185 gr "wadcutter" #130 design, it wass a "me too design" on H&Gs part.  There are some awesome other H&G designs which were firsts, the #68s and all of the long ogive SWC designs fall in that class.  The H&Gs also had a nice lube groove design they used on almost all of their bullets.

If you shoot a 185 short wadcutter design then you will have to have magazines that will feed it.  You will also have to have the correct recoil spring.  Everything is more critical including the extractor pressures and a much more demanding hook engagement set up.  For instance people never even realize how the extractor works on a 1911 until they start fooling around with light recoil springs.   If you want to learn the intimate details of what makes a 1911 work then travel down the 185 wadcutter path, otherwise find a combo that runs with a 16 # spring with enough overhead force margin.

A standard 1911 set up for "hard ball" loads is pretty bullet proof.  One set up for H&G 68s will gobble hardball as well.  For BP I'd seriously consider a 225 gr to 230 gr.  If it was a #68 mold I'd say go for it and run a 14# spring then just put a  16# in it for smokeless.  There are a number of H&G #68 clone molds out there, most of them have a "68" in the name.  I actually shoot bullets from a Saeco 068 tool or a Magma Master 200gr SWCBB mold, both are H&G 68 "clones." 

Magma Engineering was smart when they made molds for their automated casters, they copied H&G designs whenever possible. They even have an analog for the #34 RN, a lot of the commercial casters.

~Mako

[wildman1]

Mako, thanks. I'm just tryin ta help out a friend. Didn't want him ta sell somethin for a couple of dollars if it was worth more. WM