original .44 Henry ballistics in the .44 Special

[w44wcf]

According to the 1875 Winchester catalog, the velocity of the .44 Henry was "about 1,125 f.p.s." with a 200 gr. bullet.

A dissected .44 Henry cartridge had .08" of powder compression on the 28 gr. powder charge.

So, I tried 28 grs. by weight of different black powders in the .44 Special case to see what powder whose density would give a simiilar compression rate using a 200 gr. bullet from a 44 WCF mold which has a seating depth of .34".  The MAV-D "Big Lube" has the same .34" seating depth.

I found that, interestingly, a settled charge of 28 grs. by weight of the SWISS b.p.'s gave a very similar compression rate as the original 44 Henry cartridge at a bullet seating depth of .34" in a W-W headstamped .44 Special case.

In testing, I found that none of the 28 gr. charges were "spot on" the "about 1,125 f.p.s." ........      

average velocities - 3 rounds each - 24" barrel
Swiss 1F...... - 1,101 f.p.s.    
Swiss 1 1/2F - 1,171 f.p.s.  
Swiss 2F...... - 1,206 f.p.s.
Swiss 3F...... - 1,246 f.p.s.

The new lot of KIK would require quite a bit more compression. I'll test that next and post the results.

Based on some interpolation of the results of using using 40 grs of Swiss 3F in the 44-40 and 28 grs of Swiss 3F in the 44 Special, 23 grs. of Swiss 3F in the .44 Russian just may replicate the original .44 Henry ballistically.......

w44wcf

[Mako]

w44wcf,

As always, very interesting...

I think you may have described the powder you recovered from .44 Henry cartridges before, but to refresh us all, how would you characterize the grain size of the powder you recovered?

It would be interesting to run the powder from those types of cartridges through meshes.  I know small volumes are harder to do "reliably" but we could get an idea of retained percentages by mesh size which would allow us to characterize it by grain size.

Great work as always, I'm looking forward to your tests with KIK.  If those velocities are high, what will your next test be?   Goex probably has too low of a density and the volume of a weighed 28 grain charge will probably be too great for a .44 Spl case.

Regards,
Mako

[w44wcf]

Mako,
I did screen the original powder charge and found that about 80% was 3F and 20% was 4F.  Possibly the compression reduced the grain size in a % of the charge(?) although Dutch Bill has indicated that some of the bp's of the 1800's were a blend of two different sizes.

The 28 grs of powder from the original cartridge pushed a 200 gr cast bullet to 1,133 f.p.s. 

A powder that is as dense as Swiss is Diamondback but 28 grs by weight of 3F fell a bit short at 1,015 f.p.s.

Kik has a similar density to Goex so it will be more compressed.  I'll be testing in two weeks and will report back.
I will also tweak the Swiss 1 1/2 & 2 loads to get closer to the 1,125 f.p.s. velocity.   

w44wcf  

[Advertising]

[Fox Creek Kid]

Gentlemen, remember that the fulminate of mercury in the original rimfire cases gave an additional boost that modern central fire  priming won't according to Dutch Bill. This was discussed here several years ago. Also, different companies used different powder formulations from different manufacturers so there would naturally be a wide variation say with a .44 Rimfire loaded by Winchester using say Hazard's powder and one loaded by UMC using say Dupont powder.

[Galloway]

Ive seen period catalogs that list 23 and 26grs of powder along with the 28gr load listed for the 44henry cartridge fyi. I agree the 44special is the way to go for authenticity and dont know why its not the top caliber in the 1860 and 1866 rifles. Ive never even been able to get my eyes on one! 

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I agree the 44special is the way to go for authenticity and dont know why its not the top caliber in the 1860 and 1866 rifles. Ive never even been able to get my eyes on one! 

Simple reason: blowback.

[Mako]

Simple reason: blowback.

Kid,
I believe the majority of the 1866s and 1873s are currently .45 Colt followed by .38 Spl./.357mag.   Overall there may be as many .38/.357s in the '66 '73 flavors as .45s, the .44WCF runs third behind those two, .44spl, .38WCF and .32 WCF trail way behind.

.44Spl never were as popular, I have two in the 1866s and I had to look to find them.  There isn't anymore of a blow back issue with .44 spl than with the other two straight wall cases.  I also shoot .44 Russian and there is more of an issue with them.  But an annealed .44 spl case seals as well as .38 spl or .45 Colt. 

~Mako

[Fairshake]

The reason for the 38 special being the top choice is spelled "GAMERS"  The 1860 and 66 rifles would both be fun to shoot in the 44 spl. but the sales are going to keep it from being a easy rifle to find.
The 45 Colt and 44-40 were pretty close as far as choice in history. Every Time a new member comes into SASS and ask what caliber do I buy? Which one is he told to buy?Mako, I agree that the case would not be any more of a problem than the other straight walled cases. A full load with annealed cases would help a lot.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm thinkn' that .44 Henry rimfire ballistics might be possible with 44 Russian ammo.  What the Cowboy 45 Special has done for the 45 Cal guns the 44 Russian has been doing for 44 Cal guns for years.

Call 'em 44 Russian,  44 Long Russian and 44 Extra Long Russian, kind of like .22 Short, .22 Long and .22 Long Rifle.  FWIW, I shoot 44 ELR mostly.  That's 44 Magnum to those in Rio Linda. . .

44 ELR does approximate the power of 44 WCF quite closely when both are loaded with Genuine Powder and the same bullets.  I find that my chambers seal just fine with good brass, a stout load of FFFg and a proper crimp.  This is NOT a good chambering to go gamer with.  Less than full house loads WILL coke up the works.

For those just starting out, there are some very good values to be found in pistols and rifles in 44 Magnum chambering.  I have a brace of original Ruger Vaqueros and a couple of Browning 92s in this caliber and they still do most of my work.  FWIW, I've yet to find stronger or more reliable guns for SASS shooting.

DD-DLoS

[Bryan Austin]

Kid,
I believe the majority of the 1866s and 1873s are currently .45 Colt followed by .38 Spl./.357mag.   Overall there may be as many .38/.357s in the '66 '73 flavors as .45s, the .44WCF runs third behind those two, .44spl, .38WCF and .32 WCF trail way behind.

.44Spl never were as popular, I have two in the 1866s and I had to look to find them.  There isn't anymore of a blow back issue with .44 spl than with the other two straight wall cases.  I also shoot .44 Russian and there is more of an issue with them.  But an annealed .44 spl case seals as well as .38 spl or .45 Colt. 

~Mako

My guess....reloading issues...gaming issues...rather than hunting/self protection issues.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Kid,
I believe the majority of the 1866s and 1873s are currently .45 Colt followed by .38 Spl./.357mag.   Overall there may be as many .38/.357s in the '66 '73 flavors as .45s, the .44WCF runs third behind those two, .44spl, .38WCF and .32 WCF trail way behind.

.44Spl never were as popular, I have two in the 1866s and I had to look to find them.  There isn't anymore of a blow back issue with .44 spl than with the other two straight wall cases.  I also shoot .44 Russian and there is more of an issue with them.  But an annealed .44 spl case seals as well as .38 spl or .45 Colt. 

~Mako

l.



I knew I should have extrapolated better so here goes. The vast majority of people wanting a .44 Spcl. Henry or a '66 or '73 for that matter are BP shooters IMO, i.e., a VERY small percentage of overall CAS shooters. Probably less than 1%. That coupled with the fact that only the most anal retentive want to anneal pistol cases as it is far too much work for the gain.     I anneal cases for BPCR and it is tedious at best.

I think that because there are no carbide sizing dies for the 44-40 killed it for the CAS Dillon blue "Kool Aid" drinkers. That and that SAAMI specs for the 44-40 are all over the map.

[Bryan Austin]

l.



I knew I should have extrapolated better so here goes. The vast majority of people wanting a .44 Spcl. Henry or a '66 or '73 for that matter are BP shooters IMO, i.e., a VERY small percentage of overall CAS shooters. Probably less than 1%. That coupled with the fact that only the most anal retentive want to anneal pistol cases as it is far too much work for the gain.     I anneal cases for BPCR and it is tedious at best.

I think that because there are no carbide sizing dies for the 44-40 killed it for the CAS Dillon blue "Kool Aid" drinkers. That and that SAAMI specs for the 44-40 are all over the map.

hehehehe, you want a 44-40...you can't handle the 44-40    Gett'm Fox!

[Mako]

l.

I knew I should have extrapolated better so here goes. The vast majority of people wanting a .44 Spcl. Henry or a '66 or '73 for that matter are BP shooters IMO, i.e., a VERY small percentage of overall CAS shooters. Probably less than 1%. That coupled with the fact that only the most anal retentive want to anneal pistol cases as it is far too much work for the gain.    I anneal cases for BPCR and it is tedious at best.

I think that because there are no carbide sizing dies for the 44-40 killed it for the CAS Dillon blue "Kool Aid" drinkers. That and that SAAMI specs for the 44-40 are all over the map.

Let me see how this goes...

I knew I should have extrapolated better so here goes. The vast majority of people wanting a .44 Spcl. Henry or a '66 or '73 for that matter are BP shooters IMO, i.e., a VERY small percentage of overall CAS shooters. Probably less than 1%

I guess I'm in that 1%, I've never fired anything but a BP cartridge through any of my .44s.

That coupled with the fact that only the most anal retentive want to anneal pistol cases as it is far too much work for the gain.

owwwwwwwww that hurts, I've annealed all of my .44 special cases.

I think that because there are no carbide sizing dies for the 44-40 killed it for the CAS Dillon blue "Kool Aid" drinkers.

Yow! you're lighting me up...  I use my Dillon XL650 to load .44WCF.  I use the Dillon dies except for #5 which is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I just hit them with Hornady One Shot, or the Frankford Arsenal spray toss them in the case feeder and go to town... 

It's so Smurfy...You're just jealous

~Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Absolutely, Mako!  I do exactly the same thing and it's as easy to load as any other cartridge.

[w44wcf]

I had a chance recently to test some additional black powders in 28 gr charges by weight with a 200 gr bullet. Remington 2 1/2 primers were used.

Here are the results:

Diamondback 3F - 1,030 f.p.s.
Schuetzen 3F... - 1,115 f.p.s.
KIK 3F ............ - 1,160 f.p.s.

Schuetzen 3F comes closest to the original .44 Henry velocity of 1,125 f.p.s. with the original charge weight.  

Of the 3, KIK definitely produces the least amount of fouling....simiilar to the early black powders.
Diamondback produced the most fouling and its ballistic strength was the lowest.

w44wcf
  
 

[w44wcf]

I'm thinkn' that .44 Henry rimfire ballistics might be possible with 44 Russian ammo.  What the Cowboy 45 Special has done for the 45 Cal guns the 44 Russian has been doing for 44 Cal guns for years.................
DD-DLoS

DD,
Recently I was able to acquire some original 44 Russian b.p. ammo that was made prior to 1911.  The cartridges were factory loaded with 23 grs. of what appears to be FFG powder. After replacing the mercuric primers with Remington 2 1/2's I ran 5 of them across the chronograph from a 44 Mag riifle with a 20" barrel.  Average muzzle velocity was almost 1,000 f.p.s. (986) with the 246 gr. factory bullet.  

I then loaded some current 44 Russian cases with a 200 gr. Big Lube bullet over 23 grs of SWISS FFFG. That took a bit of compression as these are not balloon head cases like the originals.  Average velocity was 1,128 f.p.s. in the 20" barrel. which matches original 44 Henry ballistics.

w44wcf

[Springfield Slim]

Why would you need carbide dies for the 44-40? They size just fine on my Dillon with a little spray lube on them. I lube my 45 Colt brass also, makes things go so much easier.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I then loaded some current 44 Russian cases with a 200 gr. Big Lube bullet over 23 grs of SWISS FFFG. That took a bit of compression as these are not balloon head cases like the originals.  Average velocity was 1,128 f.p.s. in the 20" barrel. which matches original 44 Henry ballistics...

I loaded 23 gr. of FFFg in .44 Russian Starline cases years ago as an experiment and had to compress a lot as well, so much so that accuracy was very bad out of a handgun. FWIW, I chronographed 28 gr. FFFg (forget the brand) in a 44-40 Uberti carbine and got 1050 fps and the SD was SINGLE DIGIT for all shots!! I used a 1/8" Circle Fly 0.430" wad over the powder and the bullet was a 200 gr. MAV.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thank you w44wcf,

Your data is about what I had interpolated.  Now, if I could only get 44 Russian or 44 Special brass to feed thru my Browning 92s. . .

DD-MDA

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I used to load .45 schofields for my 1860 Henry.  I used a 200 grain bullet and about 27-28 grains of FFG Goex.  IIRC, I got about 1140-1150 FPS from it.