Open Top firing pin probs

Marshal Deadwood · July 18, 2011, 10:53:07 PM

I need to replace the firing pin on my '71 Open Top. I can not remember who you guys said you go to for the quality replacement firing pins for the open tops. if ya could tell me, I would appreciate it greatly.

Thank you

MD

Mako · July 19, 2011, 12:30:30 AM

http://www.thesmithshop.com/openfire.html

I have them in mine. What was yours doing? Mine were piercing the primers because of the shape. The true conical shape Hap has is better.

~Mako

Marshal Deadwood · July 19, 2011, 12:59:21 AM

Mako, mine is doing the same thing. Thank you very much for the link.

MD

MMA10mm · July 19, 2011, 08:07:28 AM

Nuthin' wrong with replacing them with better-made, but when I had this problem and asked about it here, it was suggester to just carefully shorten and round the nose of the pin, which I did with a stone. Can't go too far, or you buy replacement anyway, but even I was able to do this fix myself...

Mako · July 19, 2011, 06:35:22 PM

MMA10MM,
You're right that can definitely be tried first. I need to take some pictures of those original pins to show you how bad they were.

I had one pair of Open Tops and I had no problems and never changed the pins, then I got the second pair and they were even sharper than the factory pins Hap shows on his page. I tried to reduce the length and make the radius larger but I was running out of firing pin.

Go take a look at the difference in the shapes on his page and how a lot of them even bend.

Your advice is wise and we really should try to fix things first before just replacing parts. Hap made those pins because too many of us couldn't "get there from here" with the factory pins.

~Mako

Coffinmaker · July 19, 2011, 07:35:09 PM

My other first step suggestion is to replace the stock Main Spring with a lighter after market spring. I use after market springs 'cause i really don't like steel "dust."
If the problem persists, carefully stone the nose of the firing pin.
If the problem persists

replace the firing pins.
VTI gunparts has a nice replacement spring and I believe the also carry the "Smith Shop" firing pins and a factory replacement pin that is hardened and not so pointy.

Coffinmaker

Abilene · July 19, 2011, 09:14:15 PM

The OT's made in the last couple years tend to have less pointy, more conical shaped pins. It only took Uberti close to 10 years to change them

Marshal Deadwood · July 19, 2011, 10:11:13 PM

I have to do some careful 'looking' but I have a prob I cant identify as of yet. On one OT, when I go to cock the hammer after firing a round, the cylinder feels like it's in a bind.........ok,,,shot somkeless so I doubt that is at the cylinder/cone gap..........but still seemed to bind. I feel now the prob is at the rear of the cylinder,,,,maybe the firing pin is not wanting to release from the primer after it hits it......? So's I check the primers,,and it's not punching thur them......

Whatever my 'sticking' prob is, when I'm shooting a stage and it 'locks up',,i gently reach up with my left hand and 'help start' the cylinder to roll and it goes fine.

Now it doesn't do it every shot,,,,,,only about half the time.

What should I be looking for and what am I not seeing ?

I know my explanation might be hard to follow,,,,,,just didnt know a better way to explain it.

MD

Coffinmaker · July 20, 2011, 08:08:16 AM

First place to look with an Open Top is the Barrel/Cylinder Gap. On most, it's wrong and caused by the bore in the barrel for the Arbor being too deep. Look at the front face of the cylinder for drag marks. If you find drag marks or the Barrel/Cylinder gap just looks too small (s/b .006 +/- or a bit more for BP), you'll need to correct the barrel to arbor fit before you do anything else.

Coffinmaker

Crow Choker · July 20, 2011, 08:28:05 AM

Marshal, When I got my OT (July 08) I had the same problem you've described. My plan as I have described in other posts was to load smokeless in 44 Spec cases and black in 44 Colt, still following that route. When new, I didn't have any 'soft' lead bullets cast for 44 Colt rds or any 44 caliber bullets cast. I wanted to shoot the OT asp, so I purchased some 44 cal bullets and loaded up some 44 Spec rds using smokless. Upon firing, after the first cylinder, the problem you described happened. I had to reach up and start the cylinder after the first or second shot each time. I also noticed 'drag' marks on the bottoms of each fired case after the binding would start. Running my finger over the front of the conversion ring, I could feel several small burrs in the area that the bottom of each fired case would travel past when the cylinder would rotate. One was on the firing pin hole and the other one was where the loading gate rotates. Checking with feeler guages, flashlight, rotating both with empty cylinder and with unprimed cases, no problem exhisted. I assume at firing, the cylinder when it is forced against the conversion ring, the bottom of the fired cases came into contact with the burrs and cause the binding. I carefully stoned them off and retested. I don't know how many rds I've fired since, both smokeless and black, but I've never had a 'glich' since. Not sure whcih burr was responsible, think it may have been the one where the gate rotates as it always occurred after the 1st or second shot, but no more binding or drag marks on cases. May or maynot be your problem, but something to check. Yers, Crow Choker

Raven · July 20, 2011, 10:04:56 AM

When trying to find that ellusive Binding, rubbing, etc. spot coat the various parts in Red or Blue Dykem and reassemble and work the action. Then dissassemble and you should find the problem. Stone, File, etc the shiny spots

Dykem will find those problem areas faster than just about anything

Raven

Pettifogger · July 20, 2011, 01:14:44 PM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on July 20, 2011, 08:08:16 AM
First place to look with an Open Top is the Barrel/Cylinder Gap. On most, it's wrong and caused by the bore in the barrel for the Arbor being too deep. Look at the front face of the cylinder for drag marks. If you find drag marks or the Barrel/Cylinder gap just looks too small (s/b .006 +/- or a bit more for BP), you'll need to correct the barrel to arbor fit before you do anything else.

Coffinmaker

99% of the Ubertis have poor arbor to barrel fit. The easiest way to see this is to give it the twist test. Remove the cylinder, put the barrel on the arbor so it is 90 degrees to the frame and push it all the way until the barrel bottoms on the arbor. Then rotate the barrel down to the frame. In almost all cases the barrel will wind up behind the frame because the arbor is to short. You will never get the gun to operate smoothly until the arbor barrel fit is corrected. Here's a photo of one showing what I am talking about.

Rev Willy Duncum · July 31, 2011, 11:54:47 AM

Mine was piercing primers as well so I called the Smith Shop. He was about to send them to me when I realized that these would not work with the Richard Mason open tops as the firing pins are different. I ended up gently filing them till they no longer pierce the primers.

I also got the binding up/drag marks on the caseheads when shooting the 44 specials. I tried empty 44 special cases and 44 Russian cases. They did not bind up with the 44 Russian cases. I have not miked them but they appear to be thinner so will be shooting the Russians exclusively even tho its marked for 44 Special.

And yes, fixing the Uberti's arbor fit was the first thing I had to do.

Fox Creek Kid · July 31, 2011, 03:30:32 PM

Quote from: Rev Willy Duncum on July 31, 2011, 11:54:47 AM...I also got the binding up/drag marks on the caseheads when shooting the 44 specials. I tried empty 44 special cases and 44 Russian cases. They did not bind up with the 44 Russian cases. I have not miked them but they appear to be thinner so will be shooting the Russians exclusively even tho its marked for 44 Special...

Are you 100% sure it's .44 Special & not .44 Colt? Or perhaps your chambers were reamed a little short at the factory. The Russian has the same case rim thickness as the Special. Your gun is short chambered or mis-marked IMO.

Rev Willy Duncum · July 31, 2011, 07:17:32 PM

The barrel is marked 44 special however the previous owner shot smokeless 44 Russian and they both had quite a bit of ring in the cylinder built up. I used a Lewis Lead Remover to get it scrubbed out before the specials would drop right in. After firing the 44 sp BP, the primers were backed up and caused the cylinder to lock up. The scrapes were not just on the spent primer but deeply on the case head as well.

My thinking is along the same line, perhaps the cylinders weren't reamed out properly. However, even with the special cases fully seated, they rub where the russians don't. Both pistols do this.

Marshal Deadwood · July 31, 2011, 09:53:57 PM

Having a hardend VTI steel firing pen put in one of my OT's,,,and the arbor work done to correct length.

I'll send one at a time,,,so as to be able to afford it easier.

But it's put my tru ivory grips back down the ladder for now.

MD

Fox Creek Kid · August 02, 2011, 12:11:16 AM

Quote from: Rev Willy Duncum on July 31, 2011, 07:17:32 PM...After firing the 44 sp BP, the primers were backed up and caused the cylinder to lock up...

Are your BP loads "mouse fart" loads? What exactly is your BP load? Is the breech face where the FP passes through cratered?

Pony Racer · August 02, 2011, 08:35:45 PM

For 44 Russian I had the following experience with my 1871 OT's.

I had the primer backing out issue while using 1.3 CC 3F with a 205 grain bulllet.

I then tried 1.0cc 2F with same primers and bullets and all has been well since.

I have had no primer issues for over a year and these loads sound very hot and have knocked down pistol targets and "death stars" plates - but i do make sure to have a solid crimp.

My OT's are chambered for 44 Special.

PR

Rev Willy Duncum · August 03, 2011, 06:51:39 AM

That's the exact same load I was using but with 200 gr RNFP in a 44 sp. so I would think between the Russian and Special case, the 44 Special would be a lighter load.

I'll also check the breech face to check straightness.

Steel Horse Bailey · August 05, 2011, 01:03:47 PM

How do you fix the frame/arbor problem? Coffinmaker, your picture is worth a million bucks, but you didn't say how to fix the problem.

My own experience with open top guns is limited to an Uberti/Iver Johnson 1860 Army and a Colt 2nd Gen. 1st Mod. Dragoon, neither of which shares that particular problem.

Having just ordered an 1871/2 Open Top in 44 Spl. yesterday, I'm very curious. I had only (until now) heard of the firing pin issues, and most of what I'd heard was about the 45 cal. (chambered) guns.