Why no SS '51 or '60 Repos?

[John Deere]

Howdy, it's my first time posting here, and I wanted to bring up something that was on my mind.  I own a couple of 2nd Gen. Colt Stainless Steel '60 Armies, and I was wondering why no Italian maker today is making any Stainless Steel cap n ball pistols outside of the '58 Remington.  Polished SS looks similar to nickel is so much more durable.  Why do ya'll think they aren't making any today?

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Howdy, it's my first time posting here, and I wanted to bring up something that was on my mind.  I own a couple of 2nd Gen. Colt Stainless Steel '60 Armies, and I was wondering why no Italian maker today is making any Stainless Steel cap n ball pistols outside of the '58 Remington.  Polished SS looks similar to nickel is so much more durable.  Why do ya'll think they aren't making any today?

Well, I believe it is for a number of reasons vs one reason.

First Cost:  Material cost as well as machining costs.
Second Market:  The majority of BP shooters prefer authenticity to some degree more than durable.
Third: I left this blank because each person would have a different view of the SS response.

For me, there just would be no market based on authenticity and cost factors .... Probably the reason I do not own a SS Remington.

[Claypipe]

Howdy, it's my first time posting here, and I wanted to bring up something that was on my mind.  I own a couple of 2nd Gen. Colt Stainless Steel '60 Armies, and I was wondering why no Italian maker today is making any Stainless Steel cap n ball pistols outside of the '58 Remington.  Polished SS looks similar to nickel is so much more durable.  Why do ya'll think they aren't making any today?

Well, I believe it is for a number of reasons vs one reason.

First Cost:  Material cost as well as machining costs.
Second Market:  The majority of BP shooters prefer authenticity to some degree more than durable.
Third: I left this blank because each person would have a different view of the SS response.

For me, there just would be no market based on authenticity and cost factors .... Probably the reason I do not own a SS Remington.

Well. first off, unless you are protraying a personna of 1870 or later, then nickel would not be a period finish. Nickel finish was not perfected until around 1869, I believe. One reason that nickel was so popular, with manufacturers, was that it cut corners in the quality department. See, nickel fills in minor scratches, along with file and tooling marks. That, otherwise, would have to be smoothed and buffed out before bluing the metal.

Two Walks definitely nailed some other factors. Stainless steel chews up milling and lathe bits like you wouldn't believe. That increases production time and costs.

One of the mistaken appeals of stainless steel is that it is rustproof. It will rust just like any other steel if not properly taken care of. The salts from the sacred black and its subsitutes will eat away at a ss gun just like a blued steel one.

So. to me, there's no real advantage to having a ss gun.

CP, the gungnome

[john boy]

Closest to SS in the 51 Colt is the brushed steel US Marshal ...

[Mako]

Closest to SS in the 51 Colt is the brushed steel US Marshal ...

I believe this might be closer...

[Mako]

Howdy, it's my first time posting here, and I wanted to bring up something that was on my mind.  I own a couple of 2nd Gen. Colt Stainless Steel '60 Armies, and I was wondering why no Italian maker today is making any Stainless Steel cap n ball pistols outside of the '58 Remington.  Polished SS looks similar to nickel is so much more durable.  Why do ya'll think they aren't making any today?

John Deere,

An interesting question which I think goes to the mindset of different shooters.  I have found that shooters of Colt's pattern pistols tend to be a little more the traditionalist than the Beals Pattern pistols.  When talking to a Remington shooter they don't wax on about the handling or the traditional lines, they quickly turn to talking about the inherent strength of the design the "ease" of removing the cylinder or the narrower hammer slot opening into the breech area.

In other words New Model shooters tend to try and apply 20th or 21st thinking to their selection of pistols.  This is by no means a slight against those that have chosen or prefer the Beals Pattern pistol.  It takes all kinds in this world...  This same mindset is probably why Pietta chooses to make their reproduction of the New Models available in stainless.  You see the same mind set with ROA shooters, they tend to be pragmatic and have little issue with the traditional aspects of their choice.

Obviously Italian companies have built Stainless Steel Cap Guns other than the Remington Reproductions.  Euroarms for one and Centaur made 1860s in Stainless, Your two Colt's 2nd Gen 1860 as well as other  are testimony to the fact Uberti made them to be finished by Colt's.  14 different models in Stainless Steel were imported by several companies in the 1980s as Colt's was "producing" theirs.

Obviously money can be made in selling a pistol constructed of stainless steel or Pietta wouldn't be exporting the New Model to the United States.  It also shows that manufacturers can and do produce pistols from stainless alloys without their employees being turned to ash or their equipment being reduced into puddles of molten and twisted metal.  Modern cutters and inserts eat stainless for lunch. 

Much of the increased cost we see on Stainless Weapons has more to do with the economies of scale in getting all of the components together  in the smaller volumes they sell in (in the case of traditional weapons) than the cost of the materials or the cost of processing.  This is borne out by a quick examination of Ruger Vaquero prices for equivalent pistols, they share the same price in Stainless or Blued versions.

In many cases modern pistols are being made in Stainless and "blued"  or blackened to prevent reflective glare.  The S&W M&P pistols are testament to that, they have their components made of stainless and then carburized for a finish.

There are individuals that swear by their ROAs or Vaqueros in Stainless.  I have a good friend who specifically shoots Vaqueros in stainless and just recently bought another pair in the polished stainless because he does shoot Black Powder.   Stainless does resist the corrosive effects of the moisture that fired  BP residues attracts and the compounds that are formed with the interaction of water.  There is a huge market out there for just Stainless Steel tubes alone which wouldn't exist if there wasn't .

I believe the reason  that we don't see Colt's pattern pistols in stainless steel is traditionalism.  Nickel Plating of firearms began as early as the 1840s and had spread to the US by the 1850s, it was predominately used  on small pocket pistols as a "pocket and forget it" finish.  By 1869 and 1870 there were patents being issued on new processes in the United States alone to handle the increasing demand of Nickel Plated finishes still on the smaller and more modern designs.  Nickel became associated with new and modern and it was marketed as such.

You can say the Remington reproductions in a "nickel like" stainless finish are not very traditional, but as I said I find less traditional sentiment with Remington shooters overall.  If  there had been more of a demand for the Colt's pattern Cap and Ball revolvers made from Stainless in the early 1980s then we would see them today. 

I mean...Fingers McGee no matter how much he wishes he could, can't single handedly support an entire industry making stainless Colt's pattern pistols.

I like the Stainless Colt's 2nd Gen 1860 and owned one for a few years (until a guy claiming to be a "collector" almost came unhinged when I was shooting it on a regular basis, so I told him he needed it if it was so valuable).   They aren't rare, but they aren't common, you can buy used '60 for around a $1,000, people pay more than that for a SIG or a better 1911.  You can buy Navy models as well, I think if you used them in CAS you would gather an admiring crowd.



~Mako

[Border Ruffian]

I believe this might be closer...

That is a very beautiful revolver.

[Claypipe]

There's a lot to be said for wanting to be traditional.

Obviously money can be made in selling a pistol constructed of stainless steel or Pietta wouldn't be exporting the New Model to the United States.  It also shows that manufacturers can and do produce pistols from stainless alloys without their employees being turned to ash or their equipment being reduced into puddles of molten and twisted metal.  Modern cutters and inserts eat stainless for lunch.  

Yes, I'm sure that there has to be many advances in the industry. I started out in the days of dials and calipers. Never did cotton to this newer CNC business. No craft in it, you can get a monkey to run a machine now.

Nickel Plating of firearms began as early as the 1840s and had spread to the US by the 1850s, it was predominately used on small pocket pistols as a "pocket and forget it" finish.  By 1869 and 1870 there were patents being issued on new processes in the United States alone to handle the increasing demand of Nickel Plated finishes still on the smaller and more modern designs.  Nickel became associated with new and modern and it was marketed as such.

While there were earlier nickel finishes, they were not durable enough for use in the firearm industries. Issac Adams received a patent in 1869 for electroplating nickel to steel. For reference, see Transactions of the American Electrochemical Society, Volume 9, pages 213-215. As a youngster, I helped to refinish many a bad nickel job when I worked as a metal polisher in a bluing and plating shoppe. My edges were sharp enough to slice bread, nor were the markings washed out.

I mean...Fingers McGee no matter how much he wishes he could, can't single handedly support an entire industry making stainless Colt's pattern pistols.

Wot I miss? Not sure what that's about...

I like the Stainless Colt's 2nd Gen 1860 and owned one for a few years (until a guy claiming to be a "collector" almost came unhinged when I was shooting it on a regular basis, so I told him he needed it if it was so valuable).   They aren't rare, but they aren't common, you can buy used '60 for around a $1,000, people pay more than that for a SIG or a better 1911.  You can buy Navy models as well, I think if you used them in CAS you would gather an admiring crowd.

Not everyone here can drop a grand on a single pistol. Must be nice though.

[Fingers McGee]

Wot I miss? Not sure what that's about...

Mako is alluding to the fact that I have been on a quest of sorts for the past couple years to track down examples of SS Colts made by Uberti that were imported by Allen Firearms and others between 1983 and 1987.  He mentioned the 14 different models that were imported during this time frame.  I have been able to identify the whereabouts of 9 of the 14 models so far. 

I've got a couple of the 2nd Gen Colt SS revolvers as well as two of the Allen Firearms/Uberti models and a couple ASM models from the 70s.

Why aren't the manufacturers making SS Colt's today - cause they didn't sell back when they were being made - whether it was because of traditionalism, as Mako suggests, or just the fact that they cost almost twice as much as a Blued/CCH gun.

[Pettifogger]

Why aren't the manufacturers making SS Colt's today - cause they didn't sell back when they were being made - whether it was because of traditionalism, as Mako suggests, or just the fact that they cost almost twice as much as a Blued/CCH gun.

I think you nailed it.  Most C&B shooters are cheap.  They are still whining because you can't buy $79.00 brass frame Navy's anymore.  Even the regular Uberti steel frame revolvers are $300.00 these days.  Imagine trying to squeeze $500.00 or more out of our little group of shooters.

[Professor Marvel]

 It also shows that manufacturers can and do produce pistols from stainless alloys without their employees being turned to ash or their equipment being reduced into puddles of molten and twisted metal.  Modern cutters and inserts eat stainless for lunch.  

Ah My Dear Mako -

I do admire your turn of phrase!

I think you nailed it.  Most C&B shooters are cheap. 

Why, My Dear Pettifogger, you must have been watching, as I definitely resemble that remark!
I do however prefer the term frugal

yhs
prof ( i'm not cheap, I'm a bloody recycler! ) marvel

[Fingers McGee]

I think you nailed it.  Most C&B shooters are cheap.  They are still whining because you can't buy $79.00 brass frame Navy's anymore.  Even the regular Uberti steel frame revolvers are $300.00 these days.  Imagine trying to squeeze $500.00 or more out of our little group of shooters.

Larsen, I prefer to think of myself as frugal  

Fingers (Show Me the SS Colts) McGee

[hellgate]

"Most C&B shooters are cheap.  They are still whining because you can't buy $79.00 brass frame Navy's anymore."

How dare Mr. Pettifogger accurately describe me in such blunt terms. I prefer to be considered "thrifty". Sounds even better than frugal. And, BTW I do have a brass framed Navy I only paid $75 for. Of course, I had to install a much taller front sight and BEND THE BARREL(!) to get it to shoot to POA but that's irrelevant. I couldn't pass up a "deal" and the guy said it had been "function fired".  ;>)

[Lefty Dude]

I am Cheap !

I bought my 51 Rebs from cabelas and have $179.00 in the pair. One I bought in the bargin barn for $100.00. The other, after the cabela bucks, discounts and such, $79.00.

After many Hours of fine tuning,polishing parts and cone changes they are my main Frontier match C&B Revolvers.

I prefer the Brass frames. Would not consider a SS piece.

I have one 1860 Belgium Cenataur, made in 1960. And am looking for another 1860.

I had Remmy's once and much prefer the Colt open tops.

[Claypipe]

Both the 1851 Navy and 1860 Army remained in production till 1873. So there a four year window of possibility that I overlooked.
I forgot how long these guns were in production. So let me apologize here for my oversight. That might account for some of what you have seen.

But another question, here, is, were the pieces seen actually nickel plated? High polished silverplate finish could be mistook for a nickel finish. Silverplating was patented in England by the 1830's and perfected by 1840. Not a durable finish, but was used on some presentation pieces. Col. Colt was fond of giving out presentation pieces to advertise his wares.

CP

[Mako]

I like Colt Navy models!! I know I have seen pictures of nickel plated 1861 pistols and I think I have seen the older 1851 Navy also.
When did Colt start plating those? Did they plate the baby dragoons to? When did Colt first start plating any of their guns?

That stainless Navy is BEEEEUTIFUL!
SM

Hey Swampmouse,
I don't know about the Navy models but Colt's was offering Nickel Plating on the Root revolvers as early as 1855.  I only know this because I have a friend whose collecting passions are Root revolvers and Lefaucheux pinfire pistols.  I've worked on both for him.

The prize of his Root collection (and he has a bunch) is a nickle plated .28 caliber pocket pistol.  This is why I said earlier that there were pocket pistols that were nickeled.  He has specialized in the .28 caliber models and says they are one of the most affordable rare pistol types from a well known manufacturer out there. The .28 calibers were only produced from 1855 to 1860.  Until he started "bugging me" I had never realized that Sam Colt was on the patents, I thought it was just Root.

I did a very quick search of the auction boards and there are definitely examples of nickel plated Root revolvers.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/ColtRoot28Caliberproduced1855SN2110-1-1.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/ColtRoot28Caliberproduced1856-1-1.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/casedrootslocke1big-1-1.jpg

That first one was a factory finish and built in 1855, the second was manufactured in 1856.  I showed the third because those are Silver plated, not nickel, there is an obvious difference.

Here is a link to the second pistol shown:
http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=44912

Several of the manufacturers nickel plated small pistols prior to and during the Civil War.  Most people don't realize Sharps made a small four barreled pistol and it was offered with a nickel finish.  Smith and Wesson also offered their small model 1 pistols produced as early as 1857 with a nickel finish.  I'm sure if I did a search or pulled out Roy Jinks' book there would be examples showing early nickle plated pistols.

From what I can tell Nickel sort of started out as a finish more common on small pistols and then moved to the larger.  The same is actually true with modern pistols.  The first commercially successful stainless pistol was the S&W M60 and now they are everywhere...

Maybe the Fox Creek Kid or St. George will notice this thread and answer your question about the first nickel plated Navy models.  The kid likes shiny things and St. George is very knowledgeable on all things Colt.  Actually the Kid is very knowledgeable on the percussion pistols and conversions.  I tend to pay attention more to the mechanisms, the Kid always seems to have the obscure details.

So basically the companies were using the processes patented in England as early as 1840 to plate, there was a lot of refinement after that period, by the 1850s it was becoming more common.   As the demand grew and since there were no Amercan patents on the processes several companies and inventors patented processes they had been developing for the previous 15 or so years.  1869 to 1871 was a period of big changes in handguns.  The Rollins White patent was expiring and the demand for cartridge pistols was shooting up.  Westward post Civil War expansion was driving the market.  With it came finishes marketed to settlers and pioneers, they also offered "new fangled" cartridge guns that were a bit easier to use and care for.

Regards,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

Mako, I'm sure glad you posted those pictures of the Root.  I have a cased nickle plated Root.  I was starting to wonder about it if it were try nickle plating wasn't developed until 1869.  Mine was made in the 1850s.  Do you have a link to the first one, the one in the case?  Thinking about selling mine and need to try and figure out what it is worth.  Here's mine.

[Mako]

Mako, I'm sure glad you posted those pictures of the Root.  I have a cased nickle plated Root.  I was starting to wonder about it if it were try nickle plating wasn't developed until 1869.  Mine was made in the 1850s.  Do you have a link to the first one, the one in the case?  Thinking about selling mine and need to try and figure out what it is worth.  Here's mine.

OH NO!!!!! now I have two friends who are Root collectors...

I was starting to wonder about it if it were try nickle plating wasn't developed until 1869.  Mine was made in the 1850s.

Yeah, you have to be careful about what you read on the World Wide Web internet thingy.  For all you know it could be a 14 year old sitting in their bedroom, posting on every forum from relationship counseling to nuclear proliferation arguments.

I can also ask Jerry what he thinks a good price would be.  Is it a .28 or a .31 and what is the serial number range?   If anyone would know, he would.

This is the one I posted:

http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/50/lid/1238

Here's another:

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9394868

Don't get too excited about the second one's price.  From my buddy bending my ear about the affordability I'll bet it is closer to the first.

Who'd a thunk it?  Pettifogger, a Root man...

Regards,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

OH NO!!!!! now I have two friends who are Root collectors...
Yeah, you have to be careful about what you read on the World Wide Web internet thingy.  For all you know it could be a 14 year old sitting in their bedroom, posting on every forum from relationship counseling to nuclear proliferation arguments.

I can also ask Jerry what he thinks a good price would be.  Is it a .28 or a .31 and what is the serial number range?   If anyone would know, he would.

This is the one I posted:

http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/50/lid/1238

Here's another:

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9394868

Don't get too excited about the second one's price.  From my buddy bending my ear about the affordability I'll bet it is closer to the first.

Who'd a thunk it?  Pettifogger, a Root man...

Regards,
Mako

It's a .28.  Has the Cabin scene on the cylinder.  Serial is 122XX.  I used to love the little buggers.  This is the only one I have left.

[Mako]

It's a .28.  Has the Cabin scene on the cylinder.  Serial is 122XX.  I used to love the little buggers.  This is the only one I have left.

Okay, so 1857.  It's a bit late, so I'll call him tomorrow...

He loves them too.

~Mako