Real progress at Big Lube, finally.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy FriscoCounty,

Have you looked at the Big Lube®LLC Mav Dutchman 44 caliber 200 grain design.  I do shoot it out of 44 Russian, 44 S&W Special and 44 ELR (Extra Long Russian aka 44 Magnum).  The bullet was originally designed for the Winchester 44-40.  It shoots very well out of my 44 Cal Ruger RVs (original, 7½") when loaded with any of the three mentioned above as well as the 44-40.

Image attached.

DD-DLoS

[Mako]

Dick,
You need some background... Go read the thread over on the 1860 Henry forum beginning with this post:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35624.msg494427.html#msg494427

The bullet was in answer to make a design that looked more like a .44 Henry Flat cartridge when in a .44 Russian Case.   "They" don't want a Mav Dutchman.  The design he showed you has intentionally sized grooves and a shape to keep it within the weight range and shape of the old rim fire cartridge.   It's definitely not a design you can easily hang the Big Lube tag on, it's actually very conventional.

It speaks well of you and the molds you provide if  the first place they check is with you.  

If they just want a couple of molds they can get a turned cavity from www.Accuratemolds.com    If they want to go that route I can modify the groove walls to accommodate the design requirements for turning.  Unlike a cherry made cavity Tom has more size, shape and clearance requirements.

~Mako

[FriscoCounty]

Frisco,

Excuse me for butting in, but that bullet is not a Big Lube style bullet.  I'm actually familiar with that design...

I'm not sure that Dick will be interested in it, if he is, then that's fine.  There is a better choice for you for a "one off" mold which doesn't require a cherry to be cut.  There are several sources if you want to pay for a cherry.

~Mako

No problem butting in, it is your design. 

You are right that I appreciate the Big Lube bullets.  I have yet to cast them myself, though.  I get mine from Springfield Slim. 

[FriscoCounty]

Howdy FriscoCounty,

Have you looked at the Big Lube®LLC Mav Dutchman 44 caliber 200 grain design.  I do shoot it out of 44 Russian, 44 S&W Special and 44 ELR (Extra Long Russian aka 44 Magnum).  The bullet was originally designed for the Winchester 44-40.  It shoots very well out of my 44 Cal Ruger RVs (original, 7½") when loaded with any of the three mentioned above as well as the 44-40.

Image attached.

DD-DLoS

As Mako notes in his next reply, it is the shape that is important. That is the length of the bullet in front of the crimp groove.  That should extend the overall length of the .44 russian cartridge to the point where it will cycle through a .44Spcl 1866 without having to resort to using Adirondack Jack's cowboy carrier.

Don't get me wrong, the cowboy carrier is a fine solution; but it is frustrating when, in the heat of the moment, the scatter-brained operator forgets to deep seat the last cartridge.

As for whether it uses a single deep lube groove or two narrower ones to get enough lube present, in this particular case, the two groove design has a definite appeal.  First, it keeps the length of the bullet below the crimp to a practical minimum and maximizes the powder capacity.  Second, the above the crimp lube groove gives it that externally lubricated look associated with period ammunition.

As for whether it is 200 gr or 215 gr.  I don't have any druthers.  It will be used for banging steel and either weight will do with a case full of FFFg behind it.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako, does your design "cut it" for extended sessions or has it not come to fruition yet?   

[Mako]

Mako, does your design "cut it" for extended sessions or has it not come to fruition yet?  

Kid,
It was purely an exercise on my part because there were people trying to replicate the .44 Henry Flat round.

As you and I both know the .44 Russian doesn't have the 28 gr powder capacity of the original Henry case.  I pointed out it was because of the case construction as well as the inner lubed and "inside the case" bullet occupying almost 1/2 of the case if you use a Mav Dutchman.  I simply provided a bullet that would look like a Henry bullet and provide more case capacity.  Then I decided to add the second lube groove internally to attempt to get enough lube to allow a match to be shot without fouling out.  It's definitely not on par with a Big Lube design, but it might work well enough.

I have a .44 Special '66 Carbine with one of Haps Carriers in it and I just shoot the Mav Dutchman in a .44 Russian case.  I also have a '66 rifle in .44 spl, so I shoot both.  In the course of trying to make MMA10mm (over on the 1860 Henry forum) happy with the shape I ended up with an AOL just .019" shorter than a Mav Dutchman in a .44 Special Case.  So this would be a round for people wanting a round that looked like a .44 Henry Flat and could use the existing carrier and hold more powder than a .44 Russian with a "normal" 200 gr bullet.





The compressed volume of a .44 Henry is approximately 1.6cc, the .44 special is 1.45cc and the .44 Russian with the Mako-Henry is 1.35cc.  Basically the Henry holds 28gr of powder the .44 special 26gr and the .44 Russian with a Mako-Henry would hold 24gr.  For those who are wondering, the .44 Russian with a Mav Dutchman has a compressed volume of 1.0cc.  

Interestingly enough the Mako-Henry in a .44 Special case would have an OAL of 1.592" which is actually the correct length for the .44WCF, .38WCF and .32WCF cartridges.  The carriers are 1.60" so it will work in the current Uberti '66 and '73 rifles/carbines.



This also means a load in a .44 Colt case would be a bit slicker than using a short ogive bullet like the Mav Dutchman.  It functions in a toggle link rifle but the carrier has to push the case sticking out form the magazine tube and that makes for a stiffer action.

It sort of raises a lot of different possibilities, but it definitely doesn't have the lubrication of the Big Lube^TM family.  The two lube grooves together only hold 44% of the lube the Mav Dutchman's one big groove holds.  The traditional bullets didn't have as much lube and I added the extra groove, so who knows?  It may be something worth pursuing...



~Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

One thing worth noting about your design Mako, is that the exposed lube in the external grove means that this is not a pocketable round.  I applaud your efforts and would ask if a longer nose design with a larger ogive radius and a slightly smaller flat might not allow the Mav Dutchman to yield the same OAL?  Also, the flat base driving ring could be made slightly less robust to allow for more powder spaced, more or less like the J/P 45-200 compared to the PRS 45-250.

Of course the possibilities are endless and supply would depend on demand.  FWIW, the Mav Dutchman is a VERY popular design with bp SASS shooters.

DD-DLoS

[fourfingersofdeath]

WOW! I think I will stick with the Mav Dutchman, but cool software, the art work is really impressive.

[Mako]

 FWIW, the Mav Dutchman is a VERY popular design with bp SASS shooters...

DD-DLoS

Yep,
it's what I use.  I use more of them than any other bullet.  The Snake Bite Grease Wagon comes in second, especially since I am loading ammo for the kids with it whether it is BP or smokeless and I use "BP" lube for both.

Dick, you keep trying to apply reasonable logic to the design I have shown.  They are not looking for a reasonable design, they are looking for an "analog" shape to the old .44 Henry Flat bullet.  If you go to the link to the 1860 Henry forum I posted earlier you will see I had a design that looked more like a longer "Mav Dutchman."  That wasn't good enough, check out the kind of things these guys are doing:

This is Sgt John Chapman's efforts in just reproducing cartridge boxes...





All that work just for BOXES!

They don't care if it's not "pocketable," they are pushing the envelope of trying to recreate that which they can't buy anymore.  In fact if I announced I was going to start making .44 Rimfire ammo they would be lining up to buy it and trying to find people to convert their central fire rifles to shoot it.

You and I are much more pragmatic than they are.  I shoot .44 spl and .44 Russian because they are straight walled and I can go to town with my Dillon 650 in loading.  I have .44WCF rifles but I have to change my loading style for those.  Sometimes I shoot a .38spl '66 Short Rifle because I am on ranges at matches where you can't easily recover brass, again pragmatism.  I have noticed of all of the groups the actual Henry shooters will go to the most extremes, not all of them, but some.  I think that is pretty fun.  

I really like the fact people are making cartridge boxes and labels for cap tins.  But they are like mountain climbers, I remember a talk one time years ago, when a little boy asked the presenter not why they climbed mountains, but "don't you have to climb back down?"  It was a classic moment, the climber almost didn't know how to answer.  If we ask why they want a bullet shape (including an external grease groove) to make a cartridge that will be unique and look a little bit more like a .44 Henry Flat round, then we really don't understand.  It's sort of like people asking why we dress up like cowboys to go shooting.

You'll notice I'm not clamoring for it... I'm just playing along and perhaps they can do something we can admire.  I don't mind helping people doing that.  Besides what else are we talking about?  Until your new molds are available I guess we can argue about what to call a .45 Colt...  I think this is much more fun.

~Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

Yer rite Mako.  Two different missions here.  I guess my stuff is for high volume main match shooting and that there will always be a place for specific mission custom stuff.

I'm not jealous, just trying to have the stuff available that pards want.  Of course, there has to be enuf of them to make it do-able, otherwise it's a loss and enough of that and I'm history.

Sure is fun though, bringing the molds and stuff to market that make our sport more enjoyable.

DD-DLoS

[Fox Creek Kid]

...In fact if I announced I was going to start making .44 Rimfire ammo they would be lining up to buy it and trying to find people to convert their central fire rifles to shoot it...

For an engineer, how hard would this be to do? That is, start manufacturing say copper colored Blazer style ammo in .44 Rimfire with real BP. Just curious. I'd bet Speer would make the cases as they have technology for both aluminum cases and the means to centrifuge fulminate in rimfire ctgs.

[w44wcf]

Mako,
EXCELLENT illustrations and data!  The "Big Lube" in the 44 Russian case seated to crimp over the rear driving band would increase the case capacity to a bit more than the 44 Special but wouldn't likely be entirely practical .  

w44wcf  

[Mako]

For an engineer, how hard would this be to do? That is, start manufacturing say copper colored Blazer style ammo in .44 Rimfire with real BP. Just curious. I'd bet Speer would make the cases as they have technology for both aluminum cases and the means to centrifuge fulminate in rimfire ctgs.

Not hard, the only "specialized" machine is the header.  I actually could have bought one a couple of years ago.  There are probably some used ones around.  The spinners are specialized but easy to build.  All other machines and tooling is standard deep draw tooling including the annealing equipment that has to happen at every stage.

I don't think you could use aluminum if that is what you were getting at.  The material would be weak at the 180° bend back upon itself.  I was thinking I had seen some aluminum rimfire cases once, but I'm probably mistaken.  I had once considered a .44 Rimfire with mild steel cases.  The Russians and Chinese have .22 LR cases made from steel. I have some and they don't work well.  Plain old C260 cartridge brass is probably called for.  Just buy it as sheet form and punch the cups directly from the sheet.

It's even possible to make cartridges with some simple tooling it would just take a while.  You just add superfine glass to the Lead styphnate solution and spin it in.  You just make a vertical spinning tower and drop the solution through the mandrel, or load it in a tray and then spin it up. It can be done with or with out heat.  The glass will "hold" the solution in the rim to dry if it isn't jostled too much.

Instead of a cake like they use in primers or caps some operations keep the priming compound suspended in an alcohol solution, it has to be kept agitate to keep the glass suspended.  Others drop a pellet of cake before the case has the mandrel inserted and the add alcohol through the mandrel and spin it up.

I'll have to check my notes, but I think it only takes 4 drawing steps with anneals, a trim step, heading and then the spinning step to make a straight walled case.

You know you are a trouble maker don't you?

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

...You know you are a trouble maker don't you?...

   To comfort the afflicted & afflict the comfortable.    I'm just making you think.



The other problems would be getting Uberti to chamber guns in this caliber and as well ammo costs. At say $30 for 50 rds. many CAS people would grow weary quickly. It would be hard to do market survey for this kind of thing. A real shot in the dark. No pun intended. 

[fourfingersofdeath]

   To comfort the afflicted & afflict the comfortable.    I'm just making you think.



At say $30 for 50 rds.

Shoot, we pay more than double that for normal cowboy ammo (and our dollar is standing a bit taller than yours right now, the rifles, etc get cheaper, but the ammo is always expensive).