Fiber Wads.....Modern Chambers???

[Cemetery]

Recently started rollin' my own shotshells with real black.

Got preloobed fiber wads, specifically for my original '87 with a pitted bore, so I'm not fussin' with tryin' to get the snakeskin out of it all.

Anyway, I've been hearing that these fiber wads won't work well with modern shotguns.  Something about tumbling down the bore.

Does it have to do with what size chamber said shotgun has?

[Pettifogger]

An original 87 with a pitted bore isn't usually considered a modern gun.  So the wads should work fine.  A 12 gauge bore is a 12 gauge bore (assuming it is in spec).  The big difference is the throats and chokes.  With modern plastic wads the throats have a little longer taper to ease them into the bores and not as much choke is needed to get the same pattern on target as with fiber wads and no shot collar.  I have several 87s.  The one I use the most is a very early first Gen (single extractor model) with a pitted bore.  I cut the barrel off at 22".  87 barrels are fairly crude by modern standards.  The hole down the barrel actually wonders around quite a bit.  On the one I cut to 22" the barrel wall is about 1/16" on one side and well over 1/8" on the other and measures 10 gauge improved cylinder at that point!  Even though it is slightly blunderbuss in shape, I use plastic wads and have never had a problem with a knockdown target or flyer.  Cleaning takes a little longer, put a cork in the breech and fill it up with hot water and let it sit about five minutes.  Dump the water out, pull out the cork and push a tight fitting patch or paper towel down the bore.  Plastic comes out in a slimy blob.  I shoot a lot, so I don't take the extra time to mess with fiber wads and roll crimping as I use progressive shot shell loaders.

[john boy]

Pettifogger summed it up nicely - all you need to know.
I shoot fibers in a 1901 Damascus and 2 modern day SxS's.  I see no difference between plastic and fiber wads

[Noz]

I think you are refering to the problem associated with the forcing cones. The modern guns have long forcing cones that are designed for plastic wads. The old fiber wads fired out of these guns do not seal the barrel at the forcing cone, allow gas to escape into the shot charge and can create blown patterns.

[hellgate]

Up until the 1950s & 60s most shotshells were loaded with card over powder wads and fiber or felt filler wads into thick walled  paper hulls. The card & filler wads cannot expand laterally very much so the forcing cones on older shotguns are pretty abrupt with a short taper so gas can't get around the wad column as it is leaving the hull. In modern shotguns using tapered thin walled plastic hulls and plastic one piece wads the cup shaped over powder portion of the wad can expand outward to seal powder gases as the charge travels out of the tapered hull into a longer forcing cone and down the barrel. The short abrupt forcing cones can produce a little more recoil as the wider charge is more suddenly choked down from a thinner plastic hull in older guns. Card & filler wad columns can get blowby of gases as they traverse the hull and longer forcing cone in newer guns. What I do to compensate is to always use a cup shaped plastic over powder wad like a PGS, Air-Wedge or the bottom cut off any plastic one piece wad (double ended brush wads produce two OP wads) whenever I use fiber wads. That way the gases are sealed behind the wad column. Otherwise I just use plastic wads in everything and make sure I call someone's attention whenever I am pushing out a long dangly stringer of black plastic snot when cleaning the shotgun. You will sport a huge grin as they shake their heads and mosey on by. Generally, people leave you alone after that.

[Mako]

Yep,
I agree with Pettifogger,John Boy, Noz and Hellgate.  With your original they will work great.

With modern chambers, leads, throats, choke leads and chokes I'm sort of taking Hellgate's approach if I shoot Brass shells.  I'm now using the BPI lead/ITX  wad on top of a fiber wad. Otherwise I get a really "nice" pattern at 10 yards but a lousy concentration of shot for a knockdown target.  Otherwise I shoot plastic wads in Remington "Gold" hulls, which work great with any modern shotgun (they'll work great with older ones too).

~Mako

[Wolfgang]

Cemetary, . . . if you are looking to have a tighter pattern you might want to use a paper shot cup.


Have a look here at what i do :

www.drburkholter.com/cf14.html   

[Cemetery]

I think you are refering to the problem associated with the forcing cones. The modern guns have long forcing cones that are designed for plastic wads. The old fiber wads fired out of these guns do not seal the barrel at the forcing cone, allow gas to escape into the shot charge and can create blown patterns.

Would this be why I was told to get 11guage wads for 12gauge? 

I got 12's cause I couldn't remember why I was advised to get 11's........

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Would this be why I was told to get 11guage wads for 12gauge?  

I got 12's cause I couldn't remember why I was advised to get 11's........

The 11 gauge wads are required only when you use MAGTECH brass cases.  They are much thinner than paper, plastic, or the thicker walled brass cases that are now available.  11 ga. wads are larger in diameter to fill the larger internal space and provide proper sealing.  If you use Magtechs, the advice was correct. You can still use the 12 ga. cushion wads, as they "squish-up" under wad pressure.

[wildman1]

Cemetary, try the fibre wads ya never know they might work. I just started loading BP in shotshells and shooting them in Stoeger coach 20ga. They work great. WM

[Cuts Crooked]

and now....direct to y'all from the Dark Arts forum...........

First thing first, componants....I've loaded plastic and paper hulls but never brass with black powder. The principle remains the same no matter what type of hull one uses. You have to have a primed hull,  powder, a way to seal the powder off from the rest of the componants, some kind of cushion to protect the shot, and some way to retain all these things inside the hull. The method I use most is the old card & cushion wad system. With this type of loading one measures powder into a primed empty hull, followed by a heavy card wad that is usually called an over powder wad, then a 1/2" cushion wad is added followed by shot, and the whole thing is crimped in a normal manner with a star crimp.
The other most common method is to use modern componants instead of the card and cushion wads. Most folks find the Winchester red wads are pretty good for loading over black powder. Pretty much the same scenerio, load a primed hull with black powder, seat a plastic wad, add shot, and crimp. The plastic wad acts both as a gas seal and a cushion. These will work fine in most guns! However they will leave copious amonts of melted plastic in your bore. No big deal though, at clean up time simply squirt windex down the tubes, let it set for a few minutes, and then push a heavy paper towel or wad of news print down the bore. The plastic will come out in a stringy mess, but it will come out!

Other aspects: I have found that older scatterguns, say pre 1960s, tend to work quite well with the tradtional card & cushion wads system. They have very short forcing cones, which is what these type of wads were designed for originally. Later guns tend to have longer forcing cones and sometimes are even back bored. This type of gun is intended for modern shot shells using plastic wads and they don't usually pattern very good when loaded with the old card & cushion wads. This seems to be because the longer forcing cones allow powder gasses to get into the shot column as it passes through the long forcing cone. Combine that with the lack of chokes in most "coach guns" and you have disasterous patterns. I have found that a combination of technology is the best solution in these guns, using a heavy over powder card wad in combination with a plastic shot cup with the cushion cut off! This keeps the gasses from disrupting the shot charge and also cuts down on the plastic fouling building up in the bore!

Roll crimping: I don't do roll crimps, but they are a very authentic method of loading paper hulls, and can even be done to plastic hulls. This utilizes a thin card wad on top of the shot and the sides of the shell are "rolled" down to secure it.  Orginal roll crimping tools are often seen for sale at gun shows and on e-bay. If you are into that sort of thing go for it! They are cool looking when folks can see ya popping them into the chambers, and they work just as well as any star crimp!

Brass hulls: As previously noted I have never messed with brass hulls. The Cool Factor with them is MAJOR! But the expense has always put me off my stride when it comes to investing in them. I HATE the idea of stepping on one and ruining it during a stage! Nevertheless lots of pards use them, for the cool factor if nothing else. Loading them is not much differnt than loading any other hull, powder, then wads, then shot, topped off with a thin overshot wad glued in the top of the hull. Some pards use authentic watergless to seal the overshot wad, but hot glue seems just about as prevelant as anything, with plain old Elmers white glue near the top of ythe list too.

Loads: The ancient rule of thumb is to load with the same volume of shot as powder. Ergo a measure that throws a given amount of shot such as 1 1/8 oz is the same volume that you want to use to throw your powder charges with. This is not a hard fast rule but is always a good starting point. I've noticed that if I want to make changes it is best to go in the direction of more shot than powder, in order to maintain a good pattern. When I have tried it the other way, more powder than shot, I always end up with really crappy patterns. I can't explain it, but that's the way it works.

Finally: You are going to have to experiment with your loads and gun to find what works best for you. I started loading black powder in an ancient Crescent 12 bore and got fabulous patterns with the old card & cushion wads. This gun was designed for them and its chokes throw thier very best patterns with them. Your gun is different than mine and what works in mine may or may not work for you, particularly in an unchoked gun. But the above information should get you started in the right direction to find happiness with black powder and scattergunz!

Pards, please feel free to add information that you have discovered! This is a topic that needs all the input we can get!

.............have a look see over there sometime...lot's of stuff already answered and a really good place to start looking fer answers to a lot of questions

[wildman1]

Another thread shot ta he!!. Nothin left ta discuss here. Cemetary can ya come up with somthin else we can beat around?  WM

[zymurgeist]

That's really good information but what I'm getting from this forum is raw data. How many grains of powder and shot. How much it spread and how it patterened in what gun. General guidelines are great but getiing the anecdotal data can be very helpful too.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

That's really good information but what I'm getting from this forum is raw data. How many grains of powder and shot. How much it spread and how it patterened in what gun. General guidelines are great but getiing the anecdotal data can be very helpful too.

See the advice posted above by Cuts!! The procedures havn't changed in almost 300 years!

http://www.archive.org/stream/pteryplegiaorart00mark#page/n3/mode/2up

You have to give it a try to find out what works for you and your gun.

[Noz]

Another thread shot ta he!!. Nothin left ta discuss here. Cemetary can ya come up with somthin else we can beat around?  WM

You obviously don't read the SASS Wire. There are ways to run this a couple of pages longer,  make a lot of people angry and never get a satisfactory answer.  All you have to do is express your opinion in such a way as to make everyone else's seem stupid.

You're right, let's don't.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

You obviously don't read the SASS Wire. There are ways to run this a couple of pages longer,  make a lot of people angry and never get a satisfactory answer.  All you have to do is express your opinion in such a way as to make everyone else's seem stupid.

You're right, let's don't.

I'm trying.



VERY TRYING!

[Cuts Crooked]

That's really good information but what I'm getting from this forum is raw data. How many grains of powder and shot. How much it spread and how it patterened in what gun. General guidelines are great but getiing the anecdotal data can be very helpful too.

That's the point my friend.....

Finally: You are going to have to experiment with your loads and gun to find what works best for you. I started loading black powder in an ancient Crescent 12 bore and got fabulous patterns with the old card & cushion wads. This gun was designed for them and its chokes throw thier very best patterns with them. Your gun is different than mine and what works in mine may or may not work for you, particularly in an unchoked gun. But the above information should get you started in the right direction to find happiness with black powder and scattergunz!

.......there are no absolutes and each gun is an individual. Go forth now, Grasshopper, and experiment with YOUR gun.

[Lefty Dude]

That's the point my friend..... .......there are no absolutes and each gun is an individual. Go forth now, Grasshopper, and experiment with YOUR gun.

To each his own.

We have all been there,and done that,. Now it is your turn

[wildman1]

Hey Lefty Dood when ya get ta be my age, sometimes its like GroundHogDay. WOOHOO WM

[Professor Marvel]

I'm trying.

VERY TRYING!

Ah My Dear Sir Charles
But as a public defender in Tsay Keh Dene, would you not be defending rather than trying?

I do hope the muffin sustained you; didn't I advise you to take a few pounds of pemmican?
Or did I neglect to hit "send......"
How did you find the area? I tried google maps but blasted thing lost resolution before I could make out any buildings..

Oh, don't forget to mention to the OP how you discovered the advantages of reducing the powder to tighten up the pattern.

how's that for thread sustaining hijacking?

yhs
prof marvel