Saw something interesting on TV the other night

[Delmonico]

Not to start the static electricity will blow you up vs static will not blow you up debate, but just a fact.  i was watching a show on one of the channels about the Zambelli Fireworks company, the one that puts on the big displays all over the world.  The show, Modern Marvels I think went to the place they make their fireworks.  Now I don't always trust those shows for true facts, but I saw this and you could see this in the show. 

They have a copper piece well grounded that everyone has to use to make sure they are discharged before you go in a building where they make fireworks. 

Interesting.

[zymurgeist]

Doesn't surprise me. It's a simple precaution and they deal with compounds much more sensitive than Goex.

[Mako]

Doesn't surprise me. It's a simple precaution and they deal with compounds much more sensitive than Goex.

zymurgeist,
What compounds are those?

~Mako

[zymurgeist]

zymurgeist,
What compounds are those?

~Mako

Fireworks? All kinds of odd things. Barium chloride, powdered magnesium, lithium salts, perchlorates, phosphorus, just about anything that burns. Oh and black powder of course. Fireworks factories are far worse  than powder mills when they catch fire because of all the strong oxidizers.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Did they have ashtrays, Del? 

[Mako]

Fireworks? All kinds of odd things. Barium chloride, powdered magnesium, lithium salts, perchlorates, phosphorus, just about anything that burns. Oh and black powder of course. Fireworks factories are far worse  than powder mills when they catch fire because of all the strong oxidizers.

zymurgeist,
While it's true all of those metal compounds burn and while it is true the pure form of the metals lithium and phosphorus will combust in the presence of oxygen alone, in the form they are use as colorants in fireworks shells do yo really think they are more "sensitive" than black powder?

Consider how the materials are handled making the stars.  The storage, handling, forming, etc.  Now imaging doing that with BP.

~Mako

[zymurgeist]

That's going to depend on if they do any compounding on site which most do. Some of those chemicals are more volatile than black powder. Some of oxidizers they use are certainly more reactive than potassium nitrate.

[Mako]

That's going to depend on if they do any compounding on site which most do. Some of those chemicals are more volatile than black powder. Some of oxidizers they use are certainly more reactive than potassium nitrate.

Zymurgeist,
None of the fireworks mills compound on site.  They have neither the expertise or the resources.  We are talking about taking elemental metals which can't even be handled in atmosphere and making stable compounds out of them.   The TV episode had them grounding themselves before they entered the shops where they were making lifting charges and that was supposed to be a "big deal."  They don't have remotes, they don't have waldos, they don't have environmental chambers, they don't have gas shields.  How are they going to do compounding on site?

As far as oxidizers go, they are simply that, an oxidizer in search of a fuel source.  You could cover yourself with potassium nitrate and run naked through the streets, it really won't matter.  Now if you want to talk about an oxidizer mixed with a fuel then maybe you have something, sounds a bit like black powder doesn't it?  I'm still extremely curious as to what you consider more sensitive than BP at those fireworks facilities.

~Mako

[zymurgeist]

This is simply incorrect. Virtually all major fireworks manufacturers mix powders on site. Many of them are "trade secrets."

Just one example
From OSHA: hexachloroethane
Incompatibilities: Contact between hexachloroethane and hot iron, zinc, or aluminum, strong oxidizers, or strong alkalies should be avoided. Dehalogenation reactions can produce spontaneously explosive chloroacetylene.

Look at this website and get yourself a chemistry handbook. Poatassim perchlorate. Nitrocellulose. Read Fireworks: The Art, Science, and Technique by Shimizu

There are a dozens of compounds used in fireworks manufacture that are more dangerous than black powder. There are hundreds of items available in any hardware store more dangerous than black powder. Most industrial solvents are more dangerous than black powder. MEK is insanely dangerous and you can buy it at home depot. Black powder does not spontaneously combust. How many people have burned their houses down with boiled linseed oil?

Before coating anyone in potassium nitrate you might consider humans make great fuel and burn quite readily. And you don't want to see me naked anywhere.  

[Mako]

This is simply incorrect. Virtually all major fireworks manufacturers mix powders on site. Many of them are "trade secrets."

Just one example
From OSHA: hexachloroethane
Incompatibilities: Contact between hexachloroethane and hot iron, zinc, or aluminum, strong oxidizers, or strong alkalies should be avoided. Dehalogenation reactions can produce spontaneously explosive chloroacetylene.

Look at this website and get yourself a chemistry handbook. Poatassim perchlorate. Nitrocellulose. Read Fireworks: The Art, Science, and Technique by Shimizu

There are a dozens of compounds used in fireworks manufacture that are more dangerous than black powder. There are hundreds of items available in any hardware store more dangerous than black powder. Most industrial solvents are more dangerous than black powder. MEK is insanely dangerous and you can buy it at home depot. Black powder does not spontaneously combust. How many people have burned their houses down with boiled linseed oil?

Before coating anyone in potassium nitrate you might consider humans make great fuel and burn quite readily. And you don't want to see me naked anywhere.  

Zymurgeist,
This is going to be my last post about this.  

Yes, there are many things that are more dangerous than Black Powder, but that wasn't what you said, you were talking about sensitivity.  That is an entirely different matter.  A lot of things are dangerous, but that doesn't mean the are volatile or sensitive.  Accidents at fireworks facilities (accidents of report) are caused by BP explosions or fires from BP.  There are accidents involving workers who are injured because some of the star mixtures ignite,but the catastrophic incidents involve BP detonations.

For instance you chose Hexachloroethane as an example which is actually a very good one.  Tons of it are used every year in producing smoke canisters, screening shells and even in land based and naval artillery shells.  But, Hexachloroethane is actually hard to ignite... The cautions you listed were the conditions under which it is dangerous and are not germane to the discussions of fireworks production.

The compounding you spoke of is not what I wrote about, much of what you are talking about are mixtures, not compounds.  I was talking about taking the extremely volatile metals and actually creating usable compounds.  Those would truly be dangerous.  Even the phosphorus compounds that are used in the stars are stable until ignited.  Those compounds require higher temperatures than BP to ignite.

Thank you for the references, but I don't need anymore books for my library, especially any books on  amateur or hobbiest fireworks production.  I still have all of my texts.

I'm familiar with the chemical you have named so far.  I can tell you that none of them are as sensitive or require processing and manufacturing safety practices that BP does.  I would work at a facility handling even Primary High Explosives (the ones sensitive to friction or shock) before I would at one that manufactured BP.  Using the manufactured material was bad enough, handling large volumes of it while processing is going to one day earn you the loss of a roof in one of the bunkers.  I'd also happily work at a facility that did nothing but produce the stars for fireworks and then sell them to "fireworks" companies who would work with the BP charges, lifters, etc.  But I wouldn't work in a fireworks assembly house.

It's the conditions that create the danger.  Fireworks houses do not have the facilities or resources of a defense contractor assembling munitions at relatively (or sometimes  insane) high margins and prices.  The people working there do a good job with what they have, I have just grown spoiled in my old age.  I'm not afraid of BP other than the healthy respect we should all have for it.  I buy it in 25-50 lb lots, but when handling I'm never dealing with more than one pound and never in an enclosed industrial environment.  The closest I come to that is when I fill my BP measure on my Dillon and there is an automated shell feeder attached to the press.  I don't have suspended fines or dust as they get with daily accumulations in a fireworks house.

~Mako

[zymurgeist]

You're simply incorrect and I don't have the time to educate you. Most flammable chemicals and explosives chemicals are dangerous because they are sensitive. If you want to play semantics games feel free but it won't teach you anything. If you don't believe potassium chlorate is more sensitive than potassium nitrate you're beyond help.

[yeti76620]

Hey Del,

Didjyah see anything else interesting on TV the other night??    Maybe 'bout indentions?   


    HEH Heh heh....      

[Cuts Crooked]

Hmmmm? Can't be the weather, it's nice these days and no one is cabin bound.

Gonna start locking threads if the sniping continues. Don' like to do that, but sometimes.......

[yeti76620]

       Cuts Crooked....       .....  I'm think'n Heat Rash!...          Pretty feisty on both threads.....          Like ya said "Nutt'n to git all het over!"......         COOL SHOWERS TO ALL!!!            

[Pulp]

I've always heard that the graphite coating on Goex and other brands of BP served two purposes.   1. it makes them flow better, 2, it makes the powder less sensitive to static.  Whether or not either or true I don't know. 

I do know my non-coated homemade BP doesn't flow out of a measure worth a flip, and I've never tested it for static ignition.

Second, I know the fireworks companies use superfinely ground BP, which may be more static sensitive than what we use in our guns.  But again, I don't know if the baby powder fine BP would be more sensitve or not.  I can easily imagine some flour dust fine powder in the air igniting very easily.

I do remember a fireworks plant up by Tulsa blowing up and killing several teenagers working there for summer jobs.  I don't remember the cause of the explosion.

But one thing I do know for sure: if I went into a fireworks plant and they told me to touch a copper rod before entering certain rooms, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be touching that rod.

[Delmonico]

But one thing I do know for sure: if I went into a fireworks plant and they told me to touch a copper rod before entering certain rooms, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be touching that rod.

Yep, I would too, it may not be needed, but who knows, I bet the folks there know things we don't. 

One thing a lot of folks don't realize either is different folks hold static charges differently.  Doubt there has been any big studies done on it, but it is interesting.  If someone wants to search it feel free. 

[wildman1]

I've always heard that the graphite coating on Goex and other brands of BP served two purposes.   1. it makes them flow better, 2, it makes the powder less sensitive to static.  Whether or not either or true I don't know.

Are you  sayin that maybe I should not be sockin my BP before I use it? Not bein facetious, that is a serious question.  WM

[zymurgeist]

I'm sure it's alright to sock it but you should be thorough in your precautions when handleing it. Everyone should be doing that anyway. Oh and don't use wool socks 

[Delmonico]

I'm sure it's alright to sock it but you should be thorough in your precautions when handleing it. Everyone should be doing that anyway. Oh and don't use wool socks 

How about silk on a glass topped coffee table?

[zymurgeist]

How about silk on a glass topped coffee table?

And don't pet the cat if it's wearing rubber goulashes.