1860 Spencer Turned into M1865

smd189 · June 24, 2011, 02:45:15 PM

Hello all:

This is my first post here. I have recieved a great deal of info from Two Flints, but thought I would post my next question here. I had been looking at what I was told was a 1860 Spencer Carbine with 3 groove rifling from and online firearms antique dealer. It is not a Burnside Carbine so after talking with Two Flints we assumed it was a 1860 that was converted by Springfield at some point to the 3 groove rifling, shorter barrel, and then marked as a M1865.

I think against Two Flints better judgement, I moved forward and purchased the carbine. Well, I just got it and it is not a M1860. Unlike the description by the dealer, it does not have 3 groove rifling, but rather the original 6 groove. There is an very long faint cartouche behind the saddle ring? It almost looks like two cartouches side by side. I cannot make out what is says. It's in okay shape, but just not what I thought.

I know the 1865 was not part of the Civil War. What I'm having a hard time understanding is what they were used for. What I read is that they were almost all put into storage. Does this mean for a year or two before they ended up in the west, or did most of them stay in storage for many decades? The serial number is 17301. Am I correct that nothing can be learned about the SN numbers on the 1865?

Quite honestly, I am much more interested in the Indian wars and history of the west then I am about the Civial War so that lack of use in the Civil War does not matter to me. I just want to make sure I wasn't taken by the dealer. Is there a major value difference between two similar condition 1860 and 1865 Spencers?

Shawn

SGT John Chapman · June 24, 2011, 02:59:54 PM

Custers 7th carried Spencers till 1874 when they were issued their 1873 Springfields ,....whether they were '60s or '65s I can't tell ya......bet they wish they still had them in '76.....

Herbert · June 24, 2011, 05:20:54 PM

Without seeing photos I can not say for sure what you have ,but it sounds like you have a Spencer made 1865 carbine(does it have a cutoff)can you make out the letters inside the cartouche squares,it is very hard to tell weather a paticular carbine was yoused in the indian wars but the1865 carbine with the cutoff was the carbine of choice of front line cavalery troops up untill replacment by first the 50-70 Sharps carbine then the 45-70 Springfield,even then there were some Spencers on hand for youse by scouts and teemsters ,and at times they were even given out to civilian setalers in times of indian trouble

Arizona Trooper · June 24, 2011, 06:50:18 PM

smd189, below is a clip from a message I recently sent to a fellow M-1865 owner. I hope it will be helpful.

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Surprisingly enough, most of the late delivery arms sat in storage until they were sold off as surplus. Spencers tended to get issued more than most, but even they were available in numbers way beyond the requirements of the Army. The army went from over 1 million in 1865 (plus almost a million Confederates) down to 25 thousand by 1875. There were enough Burnside made Spencer M-1865s to give one to every member of the post war army, even the cooks, clerks and generals. Plus there were enough Spencer made M-1865s, plus 60,000 or so M-1860 Spencers, plus equal numbers of about 15 other carbine types, plus 400,000 Enfield P-53 muskets, and 700,000 Springfield M-1861/'63/'64 muskets. The numbers are staggering!

When the Franco-Prussian war broke out in 1870, the US remained officially neutral, but the Ordnance Department took advantage of the situation to unload tens of thousands of brand new, surplus Civil War arms into Europe. This was done by holding large surplus sales and looking the other way while the buyers (principally Remington, Bannerman and Hartley & Graham) shipped their purchases off to France. Spencers were especially popular with French agents.

Frances' early defeat meant that most of the imported US arms were never issued there. Germany sold a lot of the US guns back to the same people that France bought them from a year earlier. Still, as late as the 1980s, Val Forgett (of Navy Arms) was discovering unopened cases of US Civil War carbines in the armories of France. Large numbers of M-1866 Springfields, Spencer carbines and all of the Burnside/Spencer/Springfield 2 band rifles went to Europe and came back to the US in the 1870s.

That's not a lot to go on, but I hope it helps. If you'd like to dig deeper into the subject, I'd recommend "Civil War Guns" by Edwards. It originally came out in the 1960s for the centennial and is rather dated today, but it's a classic, with lots of information on how the guns got made, and what happened to them after the war.

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Check the barrel length of your carbine. An M-1860 should be 22" when measured inside the bore. A post war model will be 20". Also, post war models were marked on top of the barrel between the rear sight and the frame; M-1865, M-1867 or N.M. A few were not narked, but that is quite unusual.

A lot of carbines were issued experimentally after the war, so the Spencers tended to be shipped out and then called back as companies tried 50-70 Sharps, Peabodys, M-1870 Trapdoors, Rolling Blocks, Ward-Burtons etc. etc. Herbert is right about teamsters, scouts and settlers getting Spencers when the natives were restless. Even Indian scouts and police got them from time to time.

smd189 · June 24, 2011, 08:07:51 PM

Thanks for all of the help. This gun does have the cutoff and a 20" barrel. Would the guns shipped to Eurpoe be marked in some way? I am attaching several pictures.

smd189 · June 24, 2011, 10:29:49 PM

This is a picture of the same cartouche found on my stock. This is a different gun, but even though my cartouch is very faint, I can see that it is the same cartouche. Any info on the cartouche and if it means anything, it would great.

Arizona Trooper · June 25, 2011, 03:14:55 PM

That's a very nice looking Spencer! The rear sight leaf appears to be on backwards, which would cover up the model marking on the back of the barrel. It either was never issued, or it was refinished at some point. If the refinish was done at Springfield, it will have an ESA cartouche horizontal behind the one you show in your picture. Unfortunately, there are no distinctive markings associated with arms that have been to Europe.

An easy way to tell if your carbine was issued to a cavalry unit is to look on the buttstock for sling swivel wear. In the picture below, note the roughness on the stocks about half way between the receiver and buttplate. It shows up especially well on the Merrill, but the Spencer has it too. Absence of the wear doesn't mean your carbine was not issued to a mounted unit. The buttstock could have been later refinished or replaced.

Herbert · June 25, 2011, 03:56:47 PM

When I look a the sight it does not seem to be standard 1865 Spencer sight,could you show a better photo of the back sight,I also can not make out the letters in the cartouche clearly is it EAW,if so the should be anothe one with DAP inside or as Arizona Trooper states a ESA

smd189 · June 25, 2011, 04:35:19 PM

Thanks all. I think it is safe to say that the stock was definetly refinished at somepoint and not by Springfield. They didn't go too crazy with it as you can still make out there is a cartouch and the wood still appears proud of the metal. As far as the cartouche goes, the only think I can make out on my carbine is what looks like a letter P as the final letter. I attached the picture in the earlier post as it look like what my cartouche should be based on the final letter P. I think the sight is right. The one picture does show it folded back versus front like it should be. It's the tip out rear sight graduated to 900 yards. Thanks again.

Herbert · June 26, 2011, 12:37:10 AM

It may be my computer but the sight looks slitly diffrent to me ,Sringfild did experment with diffrent sights and some were improved on after being sold out of servise,the only cartouche with the final letter P would be DAP

smd189 · June 26, 2011, 08:13:33 AM

In looking at Spencer Sights, it looks like the sight on the 1860 had the concave profile on the top while the 1865 had more of a rounded profile. This one has the rounded profile. I looked up Spencer Sights on sites such as S&S Firearms, Ebay, etc. and with my inexperienced eyes, it looks just like the 1865 sight. With your much greater experience, what part of the sight looks a little off. That again all for the comments and info.

Arizona Trooper · June 26, 2011, 10:11:13 AM

Here is a shot of M-1860 and M-1865 rear sights. Some post war sights are graduated to 900 yards and some to 800. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is.

smd189 · June 26, 2011, 10:22:45 AM

Thanks. My sight looks just like the one in the bottom picture you sent. Would this be the correct 1865 sight? Thanks

Trailrider · June 26, 2011, 11:00:36 AM

Interestingly, my copies of the Arms & Ammunition in the Hands of the Troops for the 1866-1876 shows that various companies of the 7th and 10th Cavalries were variously issued either Spencer Repeating Rifles (Carbines) cal. 52 (.56-56) or cal. 50 (.56-50). The latter would have been either M1865's, possibly M1867's, or Burnside-made .56-50's. The logistical problems associated with this might have been an ordnance officer's nightmare, if cavalry companies issued both Spencers were stationed at the same post! A .56-56 arms could fire .56-50 ammo, but NOT visa versa. To make matters more interesting, the Third INFANTRY, stationed at Ft. Hays and Ft. Harker, KS, had M1860 Spencer RIFLES, cal. .56-56, and various 7th Cav. companies were stationed at these posts at various times during this period. Lt. Fred Beecher, who died in the battle at the island that now bears his name, was the Acting Assistant Adjutant General (AAAG) at the post where 7th Cav units were apparently "tenant" outfits, when Forsyth Scouts were organized. Did he issue the Scouts Spencer Carbines as is usually stated, or Spencer Rifles w/Triangular Bayonet out of Third Inf. stores, or some combination?

As an additional teaser, maintenance of U.S. military arms seldom maintained them in "original" configuration, so that one can find a hodge-podge of field replacements or arsenal refit and refinishes, or both...or neither! A lot of these guns were sold off through Bannerman's or Schuyler, Hartley and Graham and subsequently modified, or even went over the hill with a deserting soldier who might have sold it. Ah, if these guns could only talk!

Herbert · June 26, 2011, 05:47:11 PM

Quote from: Arizona Trooper on June 26, 2011, 10:11:13 AM
Here is a shot of M-1860 and M-1865 rear sights. Some post war sights are graduated to 900 yards and some to 800. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is.

The top sight is the 1860 sight the bottom one is for the 1865,67,&NM carbines and fifles,for some reason the photos of smd 186s sight looks like it has extra bits on it on my computer(bad photo or my computer is not procesing them right)

Fox Creek Kid · July 01, 2011, 01:35:48 PM

Quote from: SGT John Chapman on June 24, 2011, 02:59:54 PM
Custers 7th carried Spencers till 1874 when they were issued their 1873 Springfields ,....whether they were '60s or '65s I can't tell ya......bet they wish they still had them in '76.....

Actually, no. The Cavalry had phased out almost all the Spencers starting in 1871 with the Sharps 50-70 conversion carbine. This is covered by units in the superb book "CARBINES OF THE U.S. CAVALRY 1861–1905" by John D. McAulay. By 1873 there were VERY few Spencers left in service.