Weight or Volume

[Cemetery]

I've been shooting real black for two years now, and everybody I learned from has always told me to measure by volume.

I recently crossed paths with someone who says never measure by volume, but by weight.  When I asked why, I was told I would blow up the gun, and myself with it.

So is there ever a time when real black gets measured by weight?

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I've been shooting real black for two years now, and everybody I learned from has always told me to measure by volume.

I recently crossed paths with someone who says never measure by volume, but by weight.  When I asked why, I was told I would blow up the gun, and myself with it.

So is there ever a time when real black gets measured by weight?

I assume you are referencing a revolver.  If so, you could not put enough real black in a cylinder to blow up the gun.  Last week, I double checked a measure of fff Goex I have for volume and it was 18gr ... I then dumped it into my scale and it was 18gr.  This would change if I used ffff or ff.

[Cemetery]

I assume you are referencing a revolver. 

Actually, it was with reference to loading shotshells.  But then again, the same guy told me I should never use plastic shotshells cause the static inside the shell would blow me up.   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I'd be VERY leery of using FFFFg except for priming flintlocks.  The pressure could be higher than you want.

Generally, I agree with Two Walks.  Have you read the other lengthy posts related to your question?

[Fingers McGee]

Actually, it was with reference to loading shotshells.  But then again, the same guy told me I should never use plastic shotshells cause the static inside the shell would blow me up.    

Methinks you should quit listening to this guy.  He knoweth not of what he speaketh.  

I've loaded and shot percussion and cartridge shotguns with anyhere between 50 and 100 grains of ffg BP without incident other than a big bruise on my shoulder from the 100 grain loads.

So is there ever a time when real black gets measured by weight?

Onliest time I can think of would be for long range silhouette or bullseye competition.

FM

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Actually, it was with reference to loading shotshells.  But then again, the same guy told me I should never use plastic shotshells cause the static inside the shell would blow me up.   

CACATORO!   Use FFg as a preference and keep the VOLUME equal to or up to about 30% LESS han the VOLUME of shot.  Many folks load with plastic wads, including me,  Sometimes I use a card wad over the powder before inserting the wad, but it has nothing to do with static IMHO.  I do weigh, but only as a double check, or for record keeping.

[Jefro]

Methinks you should quit listening to this guy.  He knoweth not of what he speaketh.  

I've loaded and shot percussion and cartridge shotguns with anyhere between 50 and 100 grains of ffg BP without incident other than a big bruise on my shoulder from the 100 grain loads.
Onliest time I can think of would be for long range silhouette or bullseye competition.

FM

What fingers said, "pay no attention to the man behind the green curtian"

[Cemetery]

What fingers said, "pay no attention to the man behind the green curtian"

I have no intention of it......

[Mako]

Cemetery,
It's already been said, ignore him.

~Mako

[john boy]

I'd be VERY leery of using FFFFg except for priming flintlocks.

Sir Charles, the top match Schuetzen shooters of yore used FFFFg powder in their center fire reloads.  Actually it was a total black powder duplex load of FFFFg and their favorite FFg or FFFg

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sir Charles, the top match Schuetzen shooters of yore used FFFFg powder in their center fire reloads.  Actually it was a total black powder duplex load of FFFFg and their favorite FFg or FFFg

I knew that FFFFg had some uses, but was a bit specialized because it is capable of high pressure.  The early .450 Adams was loaded with sifted powder, very similar to 4F.  Those schuetzen cartridges were smaller and the shooters were skilled reloaders.  I still say that I'd be leery of using it for general loading and particularly for shotshells.

Anyway, thanks for the information.  

[ashlyngr]

First off, I am still a newbie working my way into the darkside. However, I have pondered and researched this issue for my myself.

First, by volume, and by eyeball, has been used from the beginning. I've only concerning myself with cap and ball at this point. By Volume depending on tools and/or techniques has been and can be very accurate. I've read about scoops, spoons, leveling and tapping scoops and all variations of handling black powder. By developing technique and dexterity, a shooter can draw a consistent charge everytime using manual tools.

So far every shooter I've observed loading by volume, has a different technique or tools used in loading their revolvers.

As far as eyeball I couldn't judge a yard, even if I tripped over a yard stick, and my reading glasses are permanent attire.

Next, is by weight. Weighting is by far the absolute as far as accuracy. I believe and it is my technique to first test all volume tools with a scale for tool accuracy. Powder, Sub-Powders need to be checked and verified by conversion charts. Pryodex P ffg is 25-30% lighter and by volume will throw an overcharge of 25-30% over volume.

Goex fffg BP is I believe the V-100%/W-100%. "I would still verify all tools by volume or weight, as a must."

Weight is also better suited in building loads before you go filing your fixed sights.

The only problem with weight vs. volume is convienience at the range. I solved that by pre-charging plastic tubes and using a small funnel at the range.

So far The above works for me YMMV,
Old Overholt Rye 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Weighting is by far the absolute as far as accuracy.

The problem with that statement is that not all Black Powder weighs the same. Different brands actually weigh different amounts. So if a recipe calls for 35 grains of FFg Goex, that is one thing. If it simply calls for 35 grains of FFg without specifying the brand, then you don't know exactly how much you are supposed to put in.

Now, I'm sure that somewhere in the rarefied atmosphere of the top BPCR shooters, some do measure their powder. But you can be sure that they also keep track of what brand, granulation, and what lot #. If they buy some powder from a different lot, they probably go back to the bench and requalify their loads to find out what is the best load for that particular powder, granulation, and lot #. It's not like Smokeless, where the manufacturer goes to great lengths to keep the amount of energy a particular type of powder delivers exactly the same from year to year. With Black Powder, the ingredients and the manufacturing methods vary enough from manufacturer to manufacturer that the weight, and the power, of the powder can vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer.

My favorite load for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC of FFg. No matter what brand of powder, I always use 2.2CC. That means I will always have the same amount of compression from manufacturer to manufacturer. I keep a table in my reloading notebook that shows what the actual weights are for different brands of powder. I'm working from memory here, but I think 2.2CC of Goex weighs around 34.5 grains, 2.2CC of Schuetzen weighs around 33 grains, and 2.2CC of Elephant weighed around 37.5 grains back when it was still available.

Do they all shoot exactly the same, with the exact same velocity and the exact same point of impact? Probably not. I have never bothered to find out. For Cowboy purposes, I rely on volume measurement. I dip my powder for shotgun. I have a few rotors set up for my Lyman BP measure that meter out 2.2CC of FFg, 1.9CC, and a big dollop for 45-70. So far I have been dipping 1.3CC by hand for 44 Russian because I haven't gotten another rotor to set up.

Weight is also better suited in building loads before you go filing your fixed sights.

What in the world makes you think that is so? There is plenty of difference between say 2.5CC and 2.2CC. Or 1.0 CC and 1.3 CC. Those are some of the standard Lee dippers. If you think you need to file your sights, then you need to have loads that actually have a measurable difference. You ain't gonna have enough difference to spit at if you are measuring out 35 grains of FFg vs 37 grains. BP ain't like Smokeless. .5 grains of Unique can make a big difference in velocity. It does not mean spit with Black Powder. I recently started loading 44 Russian. I simply took two dippers that looked like they would put about the right amount of powder under the bullet. Then I used my old rule of thumb about compressing the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8". 1.0 CC of FFg under a 200 grain Mav-Dutch bullet barely touched the bottom of the bullet. The next bigger Lee dipper was 1.3 CC. I even cut up a case and made up a little custom dipper that dipped out a bit more than 1.0 CC. Not much more. It didn't matter. 1.3 CC was just fine. Gave me exactly what I wanted. I did then weigh the charge, just to put it in my table. about 19.5 grains with Schuetzen. That's probably the last time I will weigh that charge.

[ashlyngr]

Reply to Driftwood: As I stated in my post I am a newbie. Although I cannot, and am not qualified in giving a dissertation based on a wealth of expierence when it comes to BP, as you have, you make my point very well.

That is, I am in the process of testing loads for my 1851 Navy Confederates. You are right in that one should keep track of all the variables. I have always done so in my years of reloading smokeless, and will continue to do so with BP. However if one considers any amounts and changes in powders and tools, weight is the common denominator. If Lee Dipper throws a certain volume say 2.2cc by volume, as you admit, every brand, grandulation, and powder type may be different by weight. I am aware of these variables and do keep very detailed data on index cards.

Therefore, it makes perfect sense and safety to me, that I test all my tools and charges by weight. I have already tossed two cheap measures because they were off.

As far as filing fixed sites, that is an issue tha extends far beyond BP. Cartridges revolvers with fixed sites require the same with load condsideration before filing.

In summary, I don't believe that I indicated in any way that Volume is an Obsolete method. I attempted to alert to some of the benefits that I have learned so far as to how I will approach these methods. And although I am a newbie as I noted in my post, I will not be a newbie that used a Volume method on Sub-BP or various BP's thus overcharging and possibly hurting others or myself by neglecting the differences in weight to verify Volume vs. Weight methods.

Old Overholt Rye

[Mako]

Ashlynger,
I have to agree with Driftwood on this.  You have already identified yourself as relatively new to BP and have been very honest about it.

Volume and compression are more important than mass when dealing with BP.  As Driftwood pointed out even the most ardent BPCRS shooters use weight just to get consistent loads from one manufacturer of powder using one grain size from one lot of production.  The purpose of using weight is to get consistent volumes of powder from case to case.

If you are shooting anything less than BPCRS in a big rifle long range (greater than 300 yds) there is no demonstrable advantage to weighing charges.  There are a few individuals who are trying to wring out that last inch from their Henrys etc. and shooting at 200yds or greater but they will admit they are a rare breed.  In fact it is safer if you switch manufacturers, grain size or even lot if you measure by volume.  

Have you ever considered how the factory rounds, some of which rival the best hand loads are created?  Do you think they weigh each rifle charge?  I'm not talking about common pistol cartridges I'm talking about precision ammo like Match, Federal Premium or the Winchester and Remington varieties.  If you go to any major high power match you will find about half of the competitors use metered charges instead of weighed.  If you go to a rifle Silhouette match you will find the same thing.  The same is true with BPCRS shooter.  I believe the other day even John Boy confessed he metered his loads with no discernible degradation of accuracy.

As I said earlier you are still learning (aren't we all?) and as you get more experience you will find that if you get 1/16" to 1/8" of compression with BP using the majority of cases you won't even see major accuracy difference from brand to brand.  You will find there will be velocity differences from brand to brand, but the difference in impact point will vary little until you get beyond 100 yds.

There are hundreds of years of cumulative experience on this board alone.  Take any three heavy posters and you are probably well over one hundred years.  Our recommendations are not based on reading magazine articles or roaming the internet, it's from practical experience.  I noticed you talked about vials and shooting revolvers.  I am making the assumption you're talking about percussion revolvers.  I can tell you from considerable experience that there is absolutely no advantage to weighing a Cap Gun charge.  You can vary the charge  grain or two and never notice a difference.   Since you can compress each charge and assure a compressed or space free load you have met the primary requirement.

Because of the low pressures and the very flat ramp rates of BP you don't see the major differences in velocity, pressure and accuracy with BP that you do with a nitrocellulose powder.

Spend more time practicing than worrying about the perfect charge.  This is something many, many high power, silhouette, cowboy and long range BP shooters have learned.  Or to their chagrin find the ones gathering the trophies are practicing instead of worrying about precision loading.

Best of luck,
Mako

[Driftwood Johnson]

ashlyngr:

Sorry if I came off sounding a little bit strident, I didn't mean to. My point was, and I believe Mako backed me up on this. A grain or two of variation in a Black Powder load really does not make much difference. I know coming from the Smokeless world that may sound unbelievable, but it is true. Consistent compression figures much larger in repeatable accuracy with Black Powder than does exact repetition of weight. As he says, it has to do with the burn rate. The repeatability afforded by dipping charges, or by any other volumetric method is plenty for consistent accuracy with Black Powder.

As far as safety is concerned, you cannot stuff enough Black Powder into a modern gun made of modern steel to hurt it. Now matter how much you stuff in, you will not build enough pressure to blow it up.

[wildman1]

Driftwood, probably should clarify on that statement. I am guessing you meant BPC and am hoping ya didn't include front stuffers. WM

[Adirondack Jack]

Weight can fool ya.  Last year I bought a little  '62 Navy, ./36 cap and ball gun.  I wanted a proper spout for the flask, decided from my research I wanted an 18 grain load, so I WEIGHED 18 grains of GOEX FFG, and cut the spout to match that.  Later, the Goex gone, I refilled the flask with Swiss 1 1/2.  The loads were a LOT hotter.  When I got home I tossed a charge fropm the flask into the scale, and it weighed just shy of 22 grains!  So, which "volume" do I want??

[Fairshake]

This huge misunderstanding has been discussed many times by different forums and by some good people. There is how ever a huge false hood that started with the advent of the fake or sub powders. I refuse to call them black powder as they are not true black powders. To address the last post by AJ first. AJ for some one who has been in the game so long you should know that all Swiss powders are of a smaller grain size than the American made Goex. If you want to check out what I am saying, Look at the two with a microscope. It could be for the reason they use the metric system, I'm not sure for the reason. I want some one who thinks that black powder was always loaded by volume to find me a box that says that. What you will find is that these cartridges were loaded with 40 grains of powder. You will not find any written material that states it is by volume. Not until the subs and the reason for that has already been explained. They are more powerful and if loaded the exact same grain for grain, you could lose a gun or more. Where did all of our cartridges like the 44-40, 38-40, 45-70, 45-90,45-110, 40-90, 45 Colt(History will say 40 grains of BP). Every person on this forum knows that the last number is the amount of black powder grains loaded in that cartridge. The old buffalo hunters would use a scale to measure out the correct amount into a case and then make it a dipper for fast loading in the field. Any loader who uses a powder measure is not the same as a dipper or volume. That measure is set by the use of a scale.Even the old 45 Colt had on most boxes that each round contained 40 grains. Sometimes the true facts are changed by the rumor mill that is a result of people who don't even shoot BP pass on information about it. They repeat what they have heard and then change it some. The best example of that is the long advised drinking of 8 glasses of water a day by doctors. It has been passed down to generations of doctors at all medical schools and printed in several books and magazines. A doctor set out about two years ago to research the material. He went back for decades and could find no written science or research that showed this drinking of 8 glasses of water a day had ever been done. It started somewhere with nothing more than gossip and through the rumor mill and then into medical school teachings. The same type of rumors that were finally put to rest was the static electricity will ignite black powder. You will blow up yourself and your home if you put BP into a measure with a plastic reservoir and drop charges. I myself was taught that many years ago and believed it to be true. I own two BP measures because of being a sucker and not doing my research. This thread is another that continues to spread the rumor. If you don't believe what I have posted then do some research and bring your proof. I will be the first to say that there is very little difference between a cartridge with 33 grains and one with 35 as BP burns all together different than smokeless. I will tell you that if you are trying to shoot the best group possible then you best use a measure.

[Fox Creek Kid]

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