BP powder measure a potential bomb?

[Dick Dastardly]

Naah Wildman, Just lawyer proofing my post.  I do see this kind of post fairly often and usually it comes from a genuine concern raised by some "renouned" author.  We're all in this together.  I want folks comfortable as well as safe, that's all. . .

DD-DLoS

[longsocks]

Just a  passing thought ...You do hear every now an then a fire works factory blowing up .. so as word of caution don't wear polyester pants and tennis shoes,  and all should be ok...

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I'm pretty sure that what has caused the last several explosions at the Goex plant have been traced back to faulty wiring or failure in their machines - mainly the "crusher" or ball roller.  I'm exactly sure of the term, but it breaks up the globs of component chemicals or the "cakes" of BP.

I haven't heard of any polyester-caused booms.  'Cept back in the leisure suit days of the '70s!

[zymurgeist]

Ball mill?. Big round drum full of ceramic balls. Crushes and mixes a slurry. I"m not sure Hogden uses those.

Can static ignite Black Powder? Absolutely. Used to happen all the time. That old stuff was touchy.
Does it happen with modern powder? Not if you handle it in anything like a cautious manner.
You know all that icky black dust people complain about? It's (mostly) graphite and it prevents static from igniting the powder (usually).
Not something I'd worry about.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Ball Mill may be the term, but I think the Goex plant uses big wheels.  Balls with sides.

[Mako]

Ball mill?. Big round drum full of ceramic balls. Crushes and mixes a slurry. I"m not sure Hogden uses those.

Can static ignite Black Powder? Absolutely. Used to happen all the time. That old stuff was touchy.
Does it happen with modern powder? Not if you handle it in anything like a cautious manner.
You know all that icky black dust people complain about? It's (mostly) graphite and it prevents static from igniting the powder (usually).
Not something I'd worry about.

Zymurgeist,
Can you provide some references or citations for "static" causing a BP accident?    You would resolve quite a few discussions and answer some the concerns that have been talked about for years, but never corroborated.

And when you say "That old stuff was touchy," are you inferring that Black powder was different a few years back, or are you referring to all BP as "old stuff?"

Thanks,
Mako

[wildman1]

Who said "ICKY BLACK DUST"? Is there another reason for shooting BP? If it were not "ICKY BLACK" Ah prolly wouldn't shoot it.  WM

[zymurgeist]

Not a few years back. A few hundred years back. Back when it was mixed more or less randomly and prone to separate into component chemicals if shaken.

Properly corned and sorted powder has relatively little dust. If you take Goex and screen it you'll get a lot of very fine dust. That's mostly graphite. It's dirty but it's a good thing.

[Mako]

Not a few years back. A few hundred years back. Back when it was mixed more or less randomly and prone to separate into component chemicals if shaken.

Properly corned and sorted powder has relatively little dust. If you take Goex and screen it you'll get a lot of very fine dust. That's mostly graphite. It's dirty but it's a good thing.

Zymurgeist,
Thank you for the answer, what you're describing is Serpetine powder which hasn't been the norm for about five centuries. Corned powder became popular in Europe in the 15th century and they were even polishing it and adding graphite by the very early 16th century.  By the 18th century the ratios we use today became the established formula for all English and American powder.

Goex actually has lot of fines in it.  There are several people who frequent this forum who have a full compliment of screens and can tell you the granular compositions of any of the popular brands of sporting powder at each labeled canister grain size.  The fines aren't just graphite, this can be easily demonstrated without any lab work by separating them and then testing the "dust" by igniting it.  You can take an equivalent amount of graphite dust and conduct the same test and there is no similarity.

Goex and their industrial users routinely test the "fines" content of their powders. The allowable fines are specified in the Material Specs.  This includes specific percentages of smaller grain sizes for each lot or canister of powder.  This goes down to the "very fines" or "super fines" and even residual or graphite that has flaked off.

Some industrial of military contract users remove the remaining fines and burn them as a separate operation.  Once the fines have fallen through the separating meshes they are immediately misted to make them inert, this damp mixture is later burned in the disposal pit in a vented "vat."  Alcohol is added to the vat and the contents are set on fire.  At least one company sells the residue which is considerable because the full combustion cycle of BP hasn't taken place.  They sell it to a agricultural company which uses the by-product as a portion of a soil "revitalizer."  The Carbon content and resulting carbon compounds from the combustion provides nutrients, the Nitrates provide nitrogen in a fixed form and the sulfur and sulfides act as acidifiers which alkaline soils need.

I was just wondering when you first answered if you had some new insight for us concerning static electricity igniting the BP we use today, or being the cause of mill explosion as they recently had in MInden.

Thanks for posting,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

...By the 18th century the ratios we use today became the established formula for all English and American powder...

Someone correct me if wrong, but I think that the Swiss vary the formula a tad to better suit their needs. Seems like I read that a few years ago in the BP Cartridge News article on the Swiss factory. 

[zymurgeist]

Quite right. Not all graphite just mostly graphite. The rougher you treat powder the more fines it has of course. As you say military powder has tended to stay pretty close to "ideal" ratios but there has always been scandals. During the Civil War unscrupulous people were selling powder that was more sand than powder and in some cases wouldn't even burn. Most of the gunpowder that came over with the Jamestown colonists had turned to dust and separated from wave action. Some of it was contaminated with seawater and fungus grew in it. Modern black powder isn't something I don't worry much about.

[Mako]

Someone correct me if wrong, but I think that the Swiss vary the formula a tad to better suit their needs. Seems like I read that a few years ago in the BP Cartridge News article on the Swiss factory. 

You are correct sir! 

They have a density concern.  As charcoal varies because of the density of the wood they actually use a composite weight/volumetric measurement technique.  The want the ratio of fuel, oxidizer and the combustion modifier (sulfur) to actually keep the same ratios by volume believe it, or not... The base line ratio is based on a volume ratio they determined with testing and as they get different densities of charcoal because of porosity, cellular make up, lignin content, creosote content, etc. they vary the mixture to achieve consistency while maintaining the consistent volume to energy relationship that Swiss is known for.

The same used to be done for some BP produced industrial or military pyrotechnics where they wanted the volumes to remain the same and the pressures consistent. The "ideal" ratios with the alder they use is almost identical to willow which is another of the two best woods. Alder has a higher creosote content  which makes it burn "moister" which is one of the secrets to Swiss.  Goex uses maple and is not as good as it could be if it used willow. 

The BP produced by the Confederate powder works in Augusta actually produced superior powder to the Union powders by the Department of Ordnance own tests following the war.  The confederacy lacked many things during the war including projectiles, but they always had powder, the mill survived the war and was never taken.  There are several books written about the powder manufacture of the Confederacy during the war between the states, including one by GW Rains who was in charge of the mill.  Many of his established practices were later put into practice by other powder mills.  They only had two or three small accidents the entire time it was in production.  It's an interesting story.  Oh, yeah...They used willow...

~Mako