Sencer Navy Rifle Serial # *** Article added ***

[spadegrip]

I am new to this forum, but I have been interested with Spencers for 25 years.  I did own 6 or 7 Spencers at one time.   As I mentioned, I owned a Spencer Naval rifle sn. 50.  I was wondering if you knew were it was issued?  I also owed a Spencer Rifle Sn. 6000, and a Carbine sn 16000.  The carbine had a ink drawing of the head an shoulders of a man with a wide brimmed hat with one side pined up.  That did not appear until I cleaned the stock with soap and water to get the grime off.  This was in the day when Spencers could be had for $300-$600.  Used to shoot them using cut 50-70 cases and a custom mould and S&S center fire breach block.  Also had a Spencer bayonet for the infantry rifle.   Bought a house and they are long gone.  This forum brings back fond memories.  Thanks!

[spadegrip]

Could anyone respond to this e-mail.  I would like to know where Spencer naval rifle sn. 50 was issued.
Many thanks!

[DJ]

Spadegrip--

I don't have a definitive answer for you.  According to Marcot, the first deliveries of Spencer Navy Rifles occurred on Feb 3, 1863.  On that date, 2 rifles went to the Charleston Navy Yard (but wasn't this under CSA control in 1863?), one rifle went to the Newport Academy, 600 rifles went to the Charlestown Navy Yard (Boston), and 100 rifles went to the Philadelphia Navy Yard.  An additional 100 Navy rifles were delivered in August 1863--unclear to which Navy Yard.  In September 1863 200 rifles went to the Washington Navy Yard, but these were Army rifles (no bayonet lug).

Arms manufacturers during the civil war do not seem to have been very scrupulous about shipping their weapons in numerical order.  That said, it is likely that your Navy rifle was shipped as part of the first Navy deliveries to one of the four destinations listed for February 1863, with Philadelphia or Charlestown being the more likely destinations, because most of the rifles were delivered to those yards.  Since the 100-rifle order delivered in August 1863 was manufactured in a separate lot, it is unlikely that serial number 50 was among them.  

It's also possible but less likely that your rifle was sold or given to a private citizen, used by the company as a sales or demonstration sample, or was disposed of in some other way.  Without records (or other information, such as Navy markings on the rifle itself), it is simply impossible to know.

I checked my Springfield Research four-volume set of serial numbers.  I found no rifle numbers below serial number 1000 (Marcot says the Navy Rifles are in the range of 1-800+).  In volume 4, there is a table containing 50 Spencer serial numbers between 8 and 929, including serial number 50, but those are all listed as Model 1860 carbines, most of which (including serial number 50) are shown as issued to the 19th Pennsylvania Volunteer Cavalry.

There are a couple of anomalies here:  Marcot says (and production history suggests) that M1860 carbines should be numbered starting around SN 11,000, which would contradict the Springfield Research listings for M1860 carbines with serial numbers below 1,000.  I can think of a couple explanations:  perhaps the carbines in the hands of the 19th Pennsylvania Vol Cavalry were actually Burnside-manufactured Spencers.  That regiment remained on garrison duty fighting guerillas in the Lousiana-Texas area until well into 1866--the Burnside Spencers were delivered to the government starting in April 1865 and were serial numbered starting at "1."  That would seem to make the most sense.  A more romantic possibility:  maybe Naval forces in Louisiana/Texas loaned rifles to the Pennsylvanians in the immediate post-war period to assist them in their terrestrial patrols, and those weapons were recorded by serial number but misidentified as "carbines" in the volunteers' records (perhaps they simply had a column labeled as "carbines" and they recorded all serial numbers, whether rifle or carbine, in that column).  It's also possible (but doubtful) that the Spencer company for some reason went back and started numbering M1860 carbines in the 1-1,000 range, or re-used serial numbers of weapons that had been returned to the factory for some reason.  Or maybe the records reviewed by the Springfield researchers were inaccurate or were inaccurately recorded.  I think these latter possibilities are unlikely, particularly the last one, due to the sheer number of, ahem, numbers.  

I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful in providing you specific information about your Spencer Navy Rifle, but perhaps others have more info to share.

--DJ

[Arizona Trooper]

The Navy rifles were mostly issued to the Mississippi flotilla as they were having a lot of trouble with Confederate sharpshooters in trees along the rivers.

The Civil War Charleston Navy Yard was (and still is) in Boston. You can walk there in about 20 minutes from the Tremont Street Armory. That's where Old Ironsides is berthed. 

The Charleston SC Navy yard was dedicated by Teddy Roosevelt in 1901. It closed in the mid 1990s, but we still have the Navy engineering operation.

I strongly suspect that the SRS carbines below SN ~10K are actually M-1865s. Both Spencer and Burnside started M-1865s at sn 1. Most units did not differentiate, which caused a lot of ammo problems. 

[DJ]

Tony is right, of course.  The SRS records for carbines with serial numbers below 1,000 could be either Spencer M1865s or Burnside-Spencer M1865s.

[Two Flints]

Does this additional info help?  To get a clearer look at these pages, print them out!

Two Flints

[spadegrip]

Many thanks for your information.  I have another Spencer sn I need info on.  Model 1860 Spencer Carbine SN 37184.

Thanks for all the help.

[Two Flints]

Hi Spadegrip,

First of all,  you really have to read and understand my standard disclaimer that I print out for everyone, who requests Spencer serial # information.  So, here it is:

Some time ago I acquired the four volume set of the Springfield Research Service (SRS) Serial Numbers of U.S. Martial Arms. I purchased the set so I could maybe help SSS members identify which unit their original Spencer Carbine or rifle was issued or assigned to during, and perhaps, after the Civil War.

Unfortunately, not all the Spencer serial numbers are listed in the four volume set I own.  And, to make identification even more difficult, there are huge and multiple  gaps between indicated serial numbers. This paragraph is a DISCLAIMER of sorts. As a courtesy to SSS members, I am happy to reveal to you the information I have regarding the serial number of your Spencer carbine or rifle. But, please remember, I am just regurgitating what I read in my SRS volumes with some "unscientific conjecture" on my part. What I do is the following: I take your Spencer serial number and try to place it in between the two closest serial numbers I find listed in my SRS volume(s).  In most cases, if the serial numbers for the Spencer before and after your own serial number were issued to the same unit, I assume your Spencer  MAY  have been assigned to the same unit.  Or, if your Spencer serial number is very, very close to another Spencer serial number in my SRS volume(s),  I assume your Spencer MAY have been issued to the same unit.

I call this "unscientific conjecture" the "Two Flints guesstimation".  I'm guessing and estimating at the same time on what I believe to be correct  information based upon the information I find in my four volume set of SRS.   I certainly and absolutely make no claim to the accuracy of my "unscientific conjecture" and you should use the information I offer only if you want to, and not to accept it as "Gospel".  

Other SSS members and even guests of SSS may post a comment suggesting that my serial # information is completely inaccurate,  but haven't I already done that with my disclaimer?  

In any case, the serial # information I provide is only a starting point, at best, and you should perhaps research the history of your Spencer Carbine with whatever resources you can find on the Internet or else where.

Now, regarding your Spencer Carbine, serial # 37184, according to my SRS Volume, I find that your Spencer may have been issued to a member of Company I, 19th New York Volunteer Cavalry, on or about October 1864.

Two Flints

[spadegrip]

Thanks two flints for your help!