Setting up my MEC 9000 for BP shell loading (totaly new to reloading)

[Holden A. Grudge]

I was given a MEC 9000 that I want to start loading BP shells with.  I could use some help and advice on what I will need to get this done. 
I have done a lot of reading on various wads and shot weight and am trying to come up with the right combination (I am aware that there is no one true solution)

My current shot charge bar is set up to throw 1oz of shot.  Will this work?  I was thinking 1 1/8 but if I can get away with the 1oz then will keep it.

I am not sure what powder bushing I currently have and am sure that, since it was set up for smokeless, I will need a new one.  What size will work for throwing the appropriate charge?

I will most likely be using either APP or real black powder (FFG) and am thinking that each will meter differently.
I was also given several bags of wads that don't appear to be usable for BP.  They are http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=445928&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Reloading%20-%20Shotshell%20Components-_-PriceCompListing-_-445928

Is my assumption that they will be too long correct or do you think I can get away with using them with a standard charge of BP?
Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

[Mako]

Ouch...

A 9000 for your first BP loader is a bit tough.  How much experience do you have with MEC loaders and which models?

A MEC 600 Jr. is probably the best learner's press.  On the 9000, the problem is that everything has to be sequenced correctly and unless you convert your powder bar body to a non-ferrous material you will be dragging BP across steel.  Most people remove the powder bottle and drop through the hole over the hull, but the 9000 wants to open back up and you have to be a three handed monkey to manage it and not let the handle come back up before you add the powder.

Believe me they are great and I use a modified progressive press for BP.  But, I still have two MEC 600 JRs in 12 and 20 that are easy to just clamp in the bench and let someone learn how to load on, and especially with BP.  We have loading parties sometimes or a shooter will ask the question like you did and they come over some weekend and they walk away with an empty wad bag and enough reloads to get them started down the Dark Path.

Since you pull and move a shell from station to station with the 600 you can literally do anything.  Load BP, load slugs, load sabot slugs, buckshot, you name it.  It's just hard to mess up on and if you do it is easily recoverable, with a progressive you have to really concentrate unless you have a Dillon 900 like Pettifogger (yeah I saw that...) or a modified progressive that will allow you to feed BP from a reservoir instead of a funnel and scoop.

The wads are probably too long, give those away or use them for the heathen stuff and get some of these.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=646729

Best of luck and be careful,
Mako

[Holden A. Grudge]

thinking I am going to burn through some hulls without components just to get the process down. 

This was not necessarily my choice of first press but the price was definitely right (FREE)

I am thinking that I can use a dipper and funnell for powder in place of the powder bottle and just add that after the upstroke following when the powder would be added but before the next upstroke of the shell.

Looks like I am going to have to order some new wads anyway so will have some time to get the process down.

[Blackpowder Burn]

+1 to what Mako says. 

I use a MEC Sizemaster (non-progressive) and pull the hull out and drop a 65 grain charge of Goex FFg with a Lyman 57 BP measure, then reinsert it an continue the loading process.  I also use the Claybuster wads with 1 ounce of shot.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Years ago, there was a thread debating the safety of using the powder hoppers on a shotgun press. I think the conclusion was definately uncertain and opinion decidedly divided. Anyway, I drop the black separately with a dipper.

My press is a MEC Grabber.  I use the first station (size - deprime) and second (Reprime) with the hoppers tipped back so they don't drop. Then I remove the shell and dip in the real gunpowder and insert the appropriate wad column, followed by a dipper of shot.  Then the filled shell goes back in the press to complete the three crimping stages.

Sometimes I empty the powder bottle, but keep the shot bottle in action.  The cases progress as they were meant to, but I lift the hull out to dip the powder, and insert wads, then straight back on the shell plate to complete the shot drop and crimp functions.

Sometimes I do it in batches; 1. cycle all cases through the size to re-prime. 2. Dip powder and insert wads, (this works best if you have a shell block drilled for a box of cases). and 3. back on the shell plate to complete the process for all cases.

I know you got a heckofadeel but the value of a single stage press is to allow you to understand and monitor each separate step.  Kind of a walk B4U run process of learning.

[Mako]

Holden,
If you are not going to use those wads or if you want to sacrifice a few try this:

• Cut the crimp section off of a few throw away hulls.  This allows you to run it through all of the stations and then dump  shot, pull the wad and dump the powder.


• Tape cardboard sides on the finished shell slide and put a bowl underneath it.  This will catch the shot and keep in tall in the bowl.


• Use spent primers for your "reloading."


• Use corn meal for your gun powder substitute.
• Reuse your shot
• Make a short extension that fits in the powder bottle attach receptacle.  Take a short piece of PVC, a piece of saran wrap and some JB Weld.  The PC has to be small enough to fit in the "cap" receptacle. Put JB Weld on the outside where it goes in the receptacle.  Cover the end with saran to keep the adhesive off of the press and then screw it in and let it harden.  After it hardens unscrew it and clean out any JB weld that may have gotten inside the PVC.  Or, you can buy one of these, http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=393396
• Get a funnel that fits in the extension and cut the nozzle until it fits snug if it is the baffle, if it is the PVC extension just stick it in

You may have trouble with the length and the fingers of the wad guide always fitting, but I should work fine.  The reason you will cut the hulls is that it is hard to get the petals open if you have a crimp.  You'll just end up fighting it and finally cutting the hull apart.

Now you need to determine the perfect column height for your wad.  Try 1 1/16 ozs. of shot and a 4cc Lee dipper of FFg.  That's about 58.8gr of powder and pattern it.  Seriously you need to pattern it. If you get a weak center section then drop down to the 3.7cc dipper (54.4gr) and up your shot to 1 1/8 ozs.  

If you don't have a manual for the loader download one from MEC and learn how to set the wad pressure.  It will probably need to be between 40 and 60 pounds with the WAA12R wad analog I showed you.  It is pretty much the same for AA hulls or Rem. STS green or the Nitro gold hulls.  You are going to adjust the loads and the wad pressure to try and get the "perfect" crimp.

There is  fair explanation of crimps on this site even though it is about 366s  

http://www.shootingbunker.com/366ArticlePart_III.html

in this photo there are 5 shells and only 2 are what I consider the perfect crimp.



Most people would thin all 5 were perfect, but I strive for the 12 o'clock and the 7 o'clock crimps.  Swirls, dishing and holes can be eliminated if you go to the trouble.

I will leave you with one last tip.  after you have the shot in the hull there should be 11mm or 7/16" if the hull left to crimp.  If you have more or less than that and you won't get the "perfect crimp.  If you have problems setting the crimp cam read the manual, if you still have problems post again and I can help.

Regards,
Mako

[South Devon Cattleman]

What was it set up for when you got it?
More then likely it was set up for trap loads for Win AA  or Rem sts hulls and a powder like Clays or Red dot. If it was all you have to do is find out what componets were being used and just change to Black powder.

I have a Mec that I used to use for trap loads a #31 bushing and 1 1/8 oz of shot, White winchester AA12 wads, AA or STS hulls. I just changed to black powder and it works fine. NO problem with knock downs plenty of Smoke fire and BOOM. Loading black powder is simple. So many people want to make it complicated and it is not.

[Mako]

What was it set up for when you got it?
More then likely it was set up for trap loads for Win AA  or Rem sts hulls and a powder like Clays or Red dot. If it was all you have to do is find out what components were being used and just change to Black powder.

I have a Mec that I used to use for trap loads a #31 bushing and 1 1/8 oz of shot, White winchester AA12 wads, AA or STS hulls. I just changed to black powder and it works fine. NO problem with knock downs plenty of Smoke fire and BOOM. Loading black powder is simple. So many people want to make it complicated and it is not.

Cattleman,
How many grains of gunpowder are you throwing with that #31 bushing?   And I mean grains VOLUME, not grains weight.  Do you have a grain volume measure?

When I read your post I was trying to figure out how you could possibly use a win white wad with 1 1/8 oz of shot and still get enough powder in the shell.  Most of us use the Win Red or the claybuster analog for 1 to 1 1/8 oz loads with BP.  The two wads look like this:

 

The CB1118 is the clabuster analog for the WAA12 (Win White) and the CB1138 is the analog for the WAA12R (Win Red).

You can see the big difference in compression section height.  You need that space for powder if it's BP.

Then it hit me, you're using the #31 MEC bushing which sounded familiar.  Sure enough, I used to shoot either Clays or 700-X and that wad.  I am curious so I just threw 10 loads of Goex FFg with that bushing and took the average volume. It basically throws under 36 grains of FFg.  That's not very much.

That's less than I put in a .44WCF with a 200 grain bullet.  200 grains is slightly more than 7/16 oz of lead.  Just how fast do you think those 36 grains are pushing a load weighing almost 246% as much?

I like slow loads to prevent the pattern from opening at CAS target distances, but I know I can't shoot that soft and be successful.  Maybe you can, but I can't.

When you say it goes boom and smokes I believe you, so do my .44WCF loads and you should get equivalent smoke.  But just how fast is that 1 1/8 oz load moving?   For example I actually load 40 grains in my dragoons with a round ball  as a standard load .  My question is what will 36 grains behind 1 1/8 oz do on "rockers" or knock down targets?  I had some 45 grain loads behind 1 1/8oz of shot in brass hulls that would only knock down about half of the targets at one match.  I quit trying after three stages and got some STS loads from the truck to finish.  I still have a box and a half of those loads I keep to let the kids shoot.  The lack of a plastic wad made that light brass hull load a bit light on the shot on target.  I can shoot 45.6 - 47.0 grains with 1 1/4 oz in a AA or Rem hull with the AA12R wad and it knocks everything down. As I drop the shot weight to 1 1/8 or 1 oz I have to boost the powder charge.

I agree loading Black Powder is simple, but you can't just substitute smokeless load components without considering the velocity and expect them to perform the same.  I doubt anyone would start mixing nitrocellulose shotgun powders using the same #31 bushing and expect the results to be correct.

It's not rocket surgery, but it takes the right component mix just like it does with "smokiless" loads.

Regards,
Mako

[South Devon Cattleman]

I am not hunting ducks or Pheasants, for the most part I am shooting at stationary targets. I don't know what the velocity is, I have never checked it. I do know that I have not had any more problems with knock downs then I had when I was using smokeless powder. The junior members with their 410's are takeing down the knock downs, with 1/2 oz oz shot. Yes they have more velocity. I am using 3f which will give just a little more power then 2f.
I also know that I could not get away with this if I was using fiber wads or Brass hulls, as they don't seal as well.

[Mako]

I am not hunting ducks or Pheasants, for the most part I am shooting at stationary targets. I don't know what the velocity is, I have never checked it. I do know that I have not had any more problems with knock downs then I had when I was using smokeless powder. The junior members with their 410's are takeing down the knock downs, with 1/2 oz oz shot. Yes they have more velocity. I am using 3f which will give just a little more power then 2f.
I also know that I could not get away with this if I was using fiber wads or Brass hulls, as they don't seal as well.

Cattleman,
If the clubs that you shoot at have shotgun targets that can be taken down with a 1/2 oz of shot (read on) then they are not calibrated correctly.  According to SASS rules (or any rules that I have seen with any CAS club) .410 shotguns do not need to knock down a shotgun target.  Most matches have calibration rules of 20ga 7/8 oz 2 1/2 Dram loads, which run at 1200 fps ±25 fps.

So let's put it in terms of momentum which is what it takes to move steel.  Unlike Kinetic Energy which is decidedly skewed with an advantage to velocity, momentum is simply mass times velocity.  The momentum of a 20ga calibration load as above is 65.6 lbs. ft./Sec.  Now get this...you would have to push 1/2 ounces of shot to 2,100 fps to get the same moment on the steel.  I think anyone can see it is not even on the same page in comparison.  My .410 sporting clay loads run around 1,300 fps which are hot, the average 1/2 oz load is 1,200 fps.  A standard .410 1/2oz  load only generates 37.5 lbs ft/sec of moment which is only 57% of the 20ga calibration load.


Shooters using a load that will only knock down targets a .410 1/2oz load will drop will probably be extremely frustrated at most club shoots and probably all matches of any importance.  If the targets have been calibrated as advised it will take a comparable moment with 1 1/8oz of shot to a 2 1/2 dram 20ga load to drop them.

It is true you will get a bit more pressure and a steeper pressure curve with with FFFg... So, since I am curious I  just repeated the #31 bushing drop test with Diamondback FFFg (I'm out of Goex FFFg right now) and the charge averages just under 36 grains.  Some of you may ask how, could that be?  Didn't I state earlier the bushing dropped the same charge of FFg?  Yep, I did, because volume measurement is agnostic as to grain size, manufacturer or anything else?  Some may ask what is the weight?   Normally *, I actually don't care, neither should any of you.  Let me repeat that "neither should any of you."  Don't get sucked up into the maelstrom of weighing BP...don't do it...don't...I mean don't.

The reason Cattleman could just switch out powders in his load from nitro to BP is that a shotshell column is the perfect example of a modern day volumetric loading.  The reason why you have to switch wads for different loads of powder/wads/shot combos and change the wad pressures is because they are volume based as well.  

I'm still curious as to the velocity out of a shotgun.  The slightly faster burning rate of FFFg will take concerns about short barreled "coach guns" out of the realm of concern, but I a still am very curious about the actual velocity and the momentum of the load.

I may be full of jelly beans, the rest of us could be wrong.  I just know that I have never heard of anyone using that combo.  I'm just one man and I don't know everything, but I have been doing this (including toppling steel) for a long time.

Regards,
Mako



*For those of you who are curious as to why I would drop a charge of FFFg when I knew what the VOLUMETRIC measurement would be, I will confess there is method to my madness.  I wanted some relative comparison between FFFg and FFg as to density which would give a rough comparison of surface area.  That is the primary difference in the conflagration rate of black powders by grain size.  Oh... the difference is 2.7gr by weight.

Those of you who are paying attention will note that I am violating my own rules of comparing gunpowder and I have mixed brands of BP.  So....... the weight comparison is just for educational purposes (don't try this at home, all tests have been performed on a closed track by a professional driver).

[Driftwood Johnson]

This was not necessarily my choice of first press but the price was definitely right (FREE)

Howdy

Sometimes even if something is free, it does not mean it is the correct tool for a specific purpose.

I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but frankly, I would not dream of starting to load Black Powder shotshells on a progressive press. It is tough enough to start out with a progressive press in the first place with Smokeless Powder, but Black Powder adds a whole new dimension to the number of things that can go wrong.

I have a MEC 9000. It has a couple of persnickety things it likes to do. You have to watch the primer feed like a hawk. If one fails to drop, then you are processing a hull with no primer in it. You may not be aware of this until you see the fine trail of powder leaking out of the hull. Probably FFg powder is too coarse to leak out, so you may get to final inspection before you notice it. The MEC 9000 has another cute little quirk, just like all the MEC progressives. If there ain't no hull present, it will happily dump powder and/or shot all over the bench. Another fun thing it will do is if the wad happens to catch on the edge of the hull as it goes in, the hull will be crushed. Then you have a crushed hull in the works. If you pull it out, you get powder and shot all over the place. The more a hull has been reloaded, the more likely the petals are deformed enough to catch a wad. I ain't saying it happens every time, but boy howdy, when it does it is a pain.

And I ain't even going to talk about dipping powder vs putting it in a MEC bottle. I ain't gonna go there.

Frankly, loading BP on a MEC 9000 seems a lot like driving a semi to the 7-11 for a quart of milk. Yes, you can do it, but it is way overkill for what is really simple on a simple little press like a MEC Jr. Free ain't always the same as good.

Just This Cowboy's Humble Opinion.

[Holden A. Grudge]

OK.  All good advice and I will definitely take it and look at how i can start loading a little simpler with a much simpler process. 

Who knows, maybe I will try to trade off the big MEC for a couple good single stage presses (shotgun and cartridge) and be able to reload all kinds of BP rounds.

Or I may just play with it a little (safely) for smokeless stuff.  Thanks again for all your advice and help.  I will keep you posted on how things are going and will be sure to ask more questions.

[Mako]

OK.  All good advice and I will definitely take it and look at how i can start loading a little simpler with a much simpler process.  

Who knows, maybe I will try to trade off the big MEC for a couple good single stage presses (shotgun and cartridge) and be able to reload all kinds of BP rounds.

Or I may just play with it a little (safely) for smokeless stuff.  Thanks again for all your advice and help.  I will keep you posted on how things are going and will be sure to ask more questions.

That is actually a good idea, you will find it much less stressful and you will learn as most of us have (with a non-progressive press) .  I would suggest a MEC 650 (Driftwood is correct, it is a 600) Jr. MK V for your shotshells.  I still even use a couple of those, they are really handy and will load BP or the new fangled stuff. They require you to move the shell from station to station which make them incredibly flexible.

For metallic cartridges you can go two routes:
1.    A true single station.
2.   A Turret Press where you either index the shells or the dies by hand.  In a lot of ways they are the MEC 650s of the cartridge world.  You can load any caliber on them and they are very, very flexible.

Single Station Presses:

Hornady Lock-N-Load
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=197894

RCBS Rock Chucker
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=513567

Lee Classic Cast Single Stage
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=317831

Redding Big Boss
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=271710

Lyman Crusher
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=585100


My favorites of these are the RCBS and the Hornady, the Lee looks good but I don't have any experience with that press.  I used to have a Forster Co-Ax which has some unique features an shell plates, but it's more expensive.  You may note I jumped over the less expensive presses, the ones I recommend are all compound "O" frame presses.  They are stronger and you can even swage on them.  If you get one you will never need another (unless you plan on shooting .50 BMG cartridges which are too long for these presses).  I have a Rock Chucker and a Lyman "C" frame press I have had for almost 4 decades and they are all I need in a single stage.  If I had only one single station it would be the Rock Chucker.

Turret (multi station/head) Presses

Lee Classic 4 Hole Turret (you rotate the dies on this one)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=814175

Dillon Basic Loader 550 (A stripped down RL550B and it is upgradeable)
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/catid/1/pid/25792/?viewImg=1

Dillon RL550B ( I can't find a site that has it without all of the OPTIONAL attachments)
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/23594/catid/1/RL_550B

The RL550B would be my choice if I was only allowed to own one press.  As you can see from the Dillon site it has a slew of attachments yet it is manually indexed which makes it perfect for almost anything.  It is strong, has removable tool heads, it will do rifle and pistol ammo.  It is easy to do BP on.

You may have noticed I only show two turret styles, that's because the rest are not "O" Frame or fully supported column frames.  The others have cantilevered heads and they will spring with hard use.  I mentioned earlier I have an old Lyman Spartan C Press, but it has a very shallow throat and I use it sometimes just for crimping.  I like the Dillon 550s but I don't have one at this time, I purged most of my presses including the big fully progressive 1050s and have gone to the XL650, but I wouldn't  recommend that press for a beginner. That Basic Loader BL550 is a new offering and you should check it out.  You could use it as a single station if you wished.

Others will have their own ideas on the best press, just like belly buttons we all have an opinion on a press.  However I have used a lot of them, and I have worn a few out like the cheaper aluminum Lee presses.  They are a good value and they have a niche, I actually had several we used for a project just because we needed a arbor press with a threaded hole.

~Mako

[Driftwood Johnson]

That is actually a good idea, you will find it much less stressful and you will learn as most of us have (with a non-progressive press) .  I would suggest a MEC 650 Jr. MK V for your shotshells.  I still even use a couple of those, they are really handy and will load BP or the new fangled stuff. They require you to move the shell from station to station which make them incredibly flexible.

Howdy Again

Just a minor correction. The press popularly known as the MEC Jr is the Model 600. The 650 is a progressive press. I agree, the MEC 600 Jr is a good press to start out with for Black Powder loading.

[Jefro]

OK.  All good advice and I will definitely take it and look at how i can start loading a little simpler with a much simpler process.  

Howdy Hoden A Grudge, all good advice about learning on a Mec 600, that's where I started, that and a Lee Classic Turret. But don't give up on the 9000, it's a great press. You can load on the Mec 9000 one shell at a time, in fact the instructions suggest doing this for a while till you get used to it. Just follow the instructions and you'll be fine, it's really not that complicated once you get the hang of it. Maybe you can find a pard to help you run through it, or has a 600jr to learn the basics. Before long you'll have every station running. Like DJ noted, make sure to keep your eye on the primer feed, if no primer drops, stop and manually put one in. I keep my primer feed tray slick by using car wax. If you ever need to remove a shell for some reason before one of the drop stations (powder or shot) replace it with a spent primed empty to catch the shot or powder, then dump it back into the container. The wads you have are great for BP, in fact thoses are the copy of the wad I use for my 7/8oz load. They are a copy of the Win Pink AA12SL, this was copyed from the link you posted "•WAA12SL, CB1100-12, Green Duster and Downrange Jammer XL-1"

Here's my load using the copy of that wad, in fact I use the CB1100-12
Rem STS or WinAA hull, Win Pink AA12SL wad, 7/8oz #8 shot, 3.1cc BP (46gr 2f Schuetzen), Mec bushing #36
My 1 1/8oz load is BPI wad # 0722SSW, 3.7cc BP (55gr 46gr 2f Schuetzen), Mec bushing #40A
I'm not suggesting you use the bushings over dipping, I just listed them for your info, Good Luck

Jefro Realx-Enjoy

[johncranack]

I bought a MEC 9000G and want to mount it to a piece of 3/4 plywood that can be clamped down, so i can move easily when needed and using a certain size helps the press with stability. I would like to know, according to you which size helps the press with stability, is it true. Share your opinions guys. Thanks.