S&W Russian reproduction question

[John William McCandles]

This may have been discussed but I can't find it and most likely know the answer.
But here goes, how do the current Russian offerings from Uberti do with black powder? The same as the Schofield offerings?
Is there anyway to modify the Russian revolvers to shoot black powder loads?

Thanks
JW

[Montana Slim]

A friend of mine has at least 3 of the .44 Russian model...he tells me they bind-up after a few rounds. Modifications required are not feasible....I wish there was good news 

Slim

[kurt250]

i bought a brace of #3's russians. i seldom shoot smokeless in them. i haven't had any problem with them binding up until i have shot at least 35 rounds. i have done no modifications but do lube my pistols well with water pump grease. i've never had a binding problem with them. kurt250

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Yes, modifications are possible, but I dunno who can do it anymore. Happy Trails told me one day he modified an Uberti Top Break to be better able to digest Black Powder. He made a bushing and fitted it to the front of the cylinder, while relieving material in the barrel frame to accept the bushing. I dunno whether it was a Schofield or a Russian that he modified, but he did do it. I will ask him next time I see him.

The same modification can be done to a Remington 1858 which is also notorious for binding up with Black Powder.

Unfortunately, Hap no longer customizes any guns so he doesn't do this anymore. But a skilled gunsmith who understands the problem should be able to accomplish this task.

[Flint]

I have an original S&W Russian, and it doesn't do any better than the Uberti with black powder....

[John William McCandles]

i bought a brace of #3's russians. i seldom shoot smokeless in them. i haven't had any problem with them binding up until i have shot at least 35 rounds. i have done no modifications but do lube my pistols well with water pump grease. i've never had a binding problem with them. kurt250

Kurt, thanks for the info, sounds promising.
Also thanks to everyone else for the input.
I may have to find a brace sometime.

Regards
JW

[Short Knife Johnson]

Try changing brands of powder.  Last weekend I switched from Goex - which worked OK in my new production Uberti Russian, and would plug my older Navy Arms Schofield solid - to Graf & Sons.  This proved to be a very good idea.  The Russian's function never hiccupped, while the Schofield actually digested four cylinders full before needing a quick scrub.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Yes, Graf's powder is less sooty than Goex. Graf powder is actually Schuetzen made by Wano in Germany. Exact same powder, just a custom bottle. Schuetzen, and Graf, use a better grade of charcoal than Goex, which results in less fouling. They both use the same Buckthorn Alder charcoal that Swiss uses, but the cost is much closer to Goex.

So to get the best operation out of a revolver that is not designed optimally for Black Powder, you will get better results with a better powder like Schuetzen or Grafs. Swiss too, but it is much more pricey. The other thing to be sure of is to use as much BP compatible lube as possible on your bullets. The combination of Big Lube bullets with lots of SPG or something similar and a clean burning powder will be your best bet for getting better mileage from a Uberti Top Break.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...The other thing to be sure of is to use as much BP compatible lube as possible on your bullets. The combination of Big Lube bullets with lots of SPG or something similar...

Exactly. I once shot NINETY SIX consecutive BP shots non stop in a buddy's Uberti .44 Russian clone using "Big Lube" bullets. I had liberally lubed the cylinder pin beforehand. When I say "liberally" I mean more liberally than Obama on health care!    Like an idiot he sold the gun shortly thereafter before asking me if I wanted it! 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I visited Hap last week. I mentioned the discussion we were having here about the modifications he has done to Italian replicas of the #3 S&W Top Breaks. Here are a few photos I took.

This photo shows a stock Uberti Schofield cylinder in front, and an ASM cylinder that Hap modified for Black Powder in the rear. The stock Uberti cylinder has their typical short bushing on front. This one only stands about .057 proud of the front face of the cylinder.

The ASM cylinder in the rear has a bushing that Hap made up. He counterbored the extractor rod hole in the cylinder to accept the new bushing. The bushing is a slip fit. When installed it stands about .150 proud of the front face of the cylinder.







Here is a photo of the bushing removed from the ASM cylinder. The screwdriver bit behind the bushing is there only because the bushing was rolling around on the bench and I wanted to keep it still. You can clearly see the counterbore in the front of the cylinder that receives the bushing.







Here is a photo of the Uberti cylinder mounted to the barrel. Looks like I didn't quite snug it up all the way. But you can see how short the bushing is and how it will not prevent fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap from being deposited on the cylinder arbor.







Here is a photo of the modified cylinder mounted in the ASM gun. Hap had to clear away material from the barrel for the bushing to fit.







This way, there is .150 of space between the barrel cylinder gap and the front of the bushing. Enough that the bushing deflects fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the barrel arbor.



For a comparison, here is the cylinder from my original S&W 44DA. The bushing stands about .170 proud of the front face of the cylinder.







Here is a view of the barrel/cylinder gap area of the 44DA.







Here are the cylinder and the barrel/cylinder gap area on my original New Model Number Three.









The bushings on both of these original S&W #3 Top Breaks are about .170 proud of the front face of the cylinder. Both of these guns were designed to shoot Black Powder and do it very well, because of the bushing design. You can see the similarity between the originals and Hap's modifications. Hap told me he worked out the dimensions for his bushings about ten years ago, based on some of the original #3 Smiths in his collection. His collection is impressive. When I asked whether the same type of bushing would work in a Uberti Russian as well as a Schofield, he said it doesn't matter. They could both be modified this way.

Unfortunately, Hap is retired now and is not doing these modifications any more. But it is not rocket science. Any gunsmith with good machining skills could do the same thing, as long as he understood the concept.

[John William McCandles]

DJ;
Thanks for the great post.
I may even be able to do this mod myself. I have the machine tools in the shop to do it.

JW

[Fox Creek Kid]

Driftwood, GREAT photos & explanation!!