7/8oz Shotshell Load Using APP

[The Swede]

You're the one that called it that.  I usually call it plasticized black powder fouling.

I was referring that time to the stuff hanging off a 4 year old's nose. 

The advice from all you fellas is pure gold. Reading through these threads has been a real education, and I thank you all!!!

[Pony Racer]

I tried plastic wads in brass shells and the patterns were not consistent.  I am pretty sure they were the red winchester wads but can not be certain.

I went right back to my fiber wads.

I agree that cleaning either way is pretty simple.  I though usually let my other guns spraying soak in first while i clean the shotguns.

I would say that i spend no more time cleaning my guns then fellow shooters shooting smokeless - if they clean their guns after shooting...

PR

[Pettifogger]

I tried plastic wads in brass shells and the patterns were not consistent.  I am pretty sure they were the red winchester wads but can not be certain.

I went right back to my fiber wads.

I agree that cleaning either way is pretty simple.  I though usually let my other guns spraying soak in first while i clean the shotguns.

I would say that i spend no more time cleaning my guns then fellow shooters shooting smokeless - if they clean their guns after shooting...

PR


Plastic wads don't work in most brass shells because the brass case walls are thinner than a modern plastic hull.  The plastic wad is simply to loose of a fit to perform properly in most brass shells.

[boilerplatejackson]

As to plastic wads and fiber wads let me say that I like and use them both in my BP shot shells. First I cut the crimp completely
off the 12 ga shotshell. Load 60 gr. of 2fg, then an over shot wad, then an over powder wad, and then a plastic shot cup which
has been cut in half. (only the cup remains on the wad). Next comes 1 oz of shot then another overshot wad and a roll crimp to give me a 2 5/8 inch shot shell. My shotgun is a 30 inch double barrel. It does the job on steel poppers every shot.

I have found that shooting just fiber wads blows holes in the patterns.

[Clemsum]

I ended up using the "190" (black plastic) dipper that came with my old Lee Loader for the powder and the Pink Claybuster wad along with 7/8oz shot from the Lee dipper, but I did use my MEC press to compress the wad and crimp. It worked out just right.

Does anyone know what the numbers on the "old style" black Lee dippers correspond too. I also have a set of them I used a long time ago with the Lee Loader. The set has a slider chart that gives the approximate powder charge in grains for each dipper with several different powders.

The chart for the 190 dipper shows 45.0 grains of FFg, but when weighed, my charge of APP FFFg came in at 49.95 grains.

I will try them out next week.

Thanks for the replies

Clemsum

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is the chart for the new "cc" LEE dippers;

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

If anyone has a chart for the old numerical style dippers, I'd appreciate getting a copy.  

Old or new, or even homemade dippers; measure and weigh the capacity and write it on a sticker pasted on the powder can. This way you have an instant reference. And it is as accurate as you can make it under your conditions.

P.S;  Thanks Clemsum.  Very helpful.

[Mako]

I ended up using the "190" (black plastic) dipper that came with my old Lee Loader for the powder and the Pink Claybuster wad along with 7/8oz shot from the Lee dipper, but I did use my MEC press to compress the wad and crimp. It worked out just right.

Does anyone know what the numbers on the "old style" black Lee dippers correspond too. I also have a set of them I used a long time ago with the Lee Loader. The set has a slider chart that gives the approximate powder charge in grains for each dipper with several different powders.

The chart for the 190 dipper shows 45.0 grains of FFg, but when weighed, my charge of APP FFFg came in at 49.95 grains.

I will try them out next week.

Thanks for the replies

Clemsum

Clemsum,
It's easy to figure out how many grains your measure holds.  Get something that will hold water on your scale (the dipper amount) and dip a full scoop of water and weigh it.  One grain by volume is actually exactly one grain by weight of water, just like one ounce of water by volume weighs exactly one ounce.

People misunderstand or over-complicate volume measurement with gunpowder.  You can't do what you were trying to do with weighing different grain sizes or even different manufacturers of gunpowder.  The density of gunpowder changes according to the manufacturer based on the wood type to used to manufacture the charcoal and even to some extent the processing.

All measurements of gunpowder (BP) are volumetric unless someone EXPLICITLY states it is mass.  It borders on or is actually dangerous to talk about gunpowder using weight as your metric.  As I said all varieties of gunpowder will vary in mass depending upon the manufacturer, etc.  Look at it this way, when someone tells you to use XX grains of NitroPowder "Y" powder made by for instance Hodgdons you wouldn't dream of substituting that load by weight with NitroPowder "Z"  made by Winchester even if they are both powders used in your particular cartridge.  Since one manufacturer and ONLY One manufacturer makes NitroPowder "Whatever" they control the process and the weights, burning rates, etc. so they can tell you to load XX grains year after year and from canister lot to canister lot.

Now all that being said, some people shooting precision long range rifle competition will determine their volumetric load for a grain size of a particular manufacturer (and in some cases each canister lot) and then determine the weight of that volume. Then they throw charges based by weight for consistency.  BUT and a big but, they have determined the weight based on the volume. Those that load gunpowder by weight and say they just switch from brand to brand and don't redetermine the mass for the new brand don't understand what they are doing.

We do the same thing with Nitrocellulose loads, if we are loading precision rifle cartridges we weigh our charges, if we are bulk loading pistol cartridges or even things like 5.56 on our progressive presses we just use our volumetric powder measure on the press.  Because of the random shapes of Black Powder the volumetric measurement actually varies more with BP than with a uniform shape such as a nitrocellulose extruded, ball or flake powder.  Since real gunpowder is actually very forgiving as long as it is packed tight and you get good compression then volumetric measurement works very well for all pistol and pretty much all pistol caliber loads for our rifles.

So get out your scale and weigh your dipper volume of water and you will have the EXACT grains volume of that dipper.

Regards,
Mako

[longinosoap]

Just got home from a shoot where I was experimenting with BP sub loads using Pyrodex RS and APP 3F.  All had 7/8 oz.  Lightest used 2.8 cc all the way to 4.0 cc.  All knocked down the targets today.  2.8 is very easy on the shoulder and did the job every time.  I use the Claybuster pink wad in AA or STS hulls.  Will probably stick with 3.1 cc from now on but at least I know 2.8 will do the job.

Regards
Soap

[Clemsum]

I shot the 7/8oz loads I made up with the "old" Lee 190 dipper of APP 3f this weekend and all the knockdowns went over with no problem. I also was using AA hulls & pink Claybuster wads.

I had asked if anyone knew what the number on the old dippers referred to and after some thinking (always dangerous) I checked a cubic inch to cc converter and it was very close, so I believe the old dippers are decimal cubic inch volumes. 3.1cc is very close to .190ci.

[Mako]

Clemsum,

That's a good load for powder if it is 3.1ccs.

What was the wad pressure you ended up using?

~Mako

[john boy]

One grain volume is actually exactly one grain by weight of water, just like one ounce of water volume of water weights exactly one ounce.

Mako - nice explanation!
And for those that don't use dippers, Thompson's volumetric measure is a good tool to determine density as what Mako explained by weighing the dipper filled with water
As you stated - all the various types of powder are not equal in weight (density) ... including nitro based powders (smokeless)
If one has a copy of Propellent Profiles, 5th Edition, nearly all the smokeless powders on the market today in the book have the density factors listed.  For black powder and substitutes, one has to do the calculation because there is no reference book listing the densities which do vary by lot

[Clemsum]

Mako

The wad pressure was between the 30 & 40 line on the press so I will call it about 35.

Thanks for the info on the grain weight of water to volume. I had often wondered about references to loading by grains of volume.

Clemsum 

[Mako]

Mako

The wad pressure was between the 30 & 40 line on the press so I will call it about 35.

Thanks for the info on the grain weight of water to volume. I had often wondered about references to loading by grains of volume.

Clemsum 

Clemsum,
If you're at 35# you are "Good to Go."  I think that is an ideal range.  You won't buckle or deform your case and you get good compression of the BP.

Best of luck to you,
Makio