Nitro Cards?

[Cookie]

I've been hand-loading brass shotshells for CAS for about a year, both 20ga and 12ga. (Using BP+ Fiber Wads)

Long story short - I've built loads with and without them, and can't tell the difference. The gun goes boom and the targets fall down.

So, my question is - am I doing something dumb by ignoring them? Or can I continue building loads without them?

Thanks for your input!

[panhead pete]

 As long as they work, have at it!  How do you keep the shot from exiting the shell?  I am guessing that you use water glass or Elmer's on top of the shot. 

PhP 

[hellgate]

I remember back when plastic wads were first being used the load tables recommended smokeless powder charges be reduced by 10% when using plastic. Nitro card wads work great in straight walled cases that you have matched the diameter well. A thin walled 12 ga case needs a larger diameter card wad as you have noticed with the thinner brass hulls (11 ga) or else there will be blow by of the propellant gas. If you use a 12ga card wad in a tapered hull it will swage the card wad to a smaller diameter and you will also get leakage. In tapered cases I always use a plastic cup shaped over powder gas seal. I feel I am getting more power than if I were using card wads. I would say that the larger card wad diameter you need for a brass thin walled straight hull gives you pretty good  gas seal as soon at the charge hits the forcing cone where the wad column get squeezed down the tight bore. If you could find an 11 ga plastic OP wad you'd get even better efficiency of your load. The card wads seal pressure behind the charge better than the fiber filler wads.

The BP loads are pretty forgiving especially if your gun is choked. I've seen squib loads that were probably only going 300fps that knocked over fallers because the shot was delivered to the steel. If the fallers are a little farther out and the pattern is wide you will have trouble. I sure have so now I use steel shot cups in my heavy "gotta knock it down" loads. They give me a modified choke out of my cylinder bores (80grs FFg+1 1/8oz shot).

[Cookie]

As long as they work, have at it!  How do you keep the shot from exiting the shell?  I am guessing that you use water glass or Elmer's on top of the shot. 

PhP 

I guess I wasn't entirely clear. I'm not talking about the overshot card.

In a 'typical' BP shotshell load, you have; powder - overpowder card (aka nitro card) - filler wad - shot - over shot card.

I've built loads without using an overpowder card (aka nitro card), and the loads still seem to work OK. So, my question is what purpose exactly do they serve? Can I continue leaving them out without ill effect?

According to BPI's product description - "Nitro cards are used as a seal between the powder and the shot." Well, if I'm using fiber wads, doesn't that do the same thing?


@ hellgate - I appreciate your taking the time to response, but honestly can't make heads or tails of 99% of it. But, I think that's due to me not asking the question correctly, since it seems you're answering a completely different question. Or maybe I'm just to new at this to understand all the jargon.

But, the one part that DID seem relevant was "The card wads seal pressure behind the charge better than the fiber filler wads."

... Now that I think about it, that really does answer my question. My loads are doing just fine as is. BUT - if they were a little anemic, adding a nitro card would boost pressure / power. Thanks.

[hellgate]

Cookie,
My apologies for not being succinct. I think you are getting decent results with your brass hull loads without a nitro card because the wads I assume you  are using are a little bit bigger in diameter than an actual 12 or 20ga wad. That means an even tighter, more snug fit going down the barrel and better gas seal. The nitro cards would improve that a little but I doubt it would be noticeable unless you were a die hard trap shooter where felt recoil with higher powder loads can be fatiguing after a long day's shoot. Good chokes can make up for weak loads on fallers.

[Howdy Doody]

Believe it or not I understood Hellgate's first post. I have never dabbled in brass shotshells, but I have done a ton of experimenting with plastic hulls I can load fast on a Mec. My standard everyday CAS match load is about the same as 99% of everyone elses that shoots BP and that would be what is called a square load. However I stink at flyers and poppers and I have had to come up with something to give me a little edge. Still using the plastic wads and in particular, STS because of a tad bit more column height, I insert primer, then powder and instead of the plastic wad I generally use, I put in an over powder card and then fibre wads and finally just the cup part of the red wads I usually use and instead of 71/2 shot I use 9 and drop in 1 1/8oz of it. Well for flyers I have made my pattern open real wide and the number 9 has given me more pellets to my 1 1/8 oz. I call them annilators and they work well for the purpose, but......................................I take it a step further by making up a more powerful load in the gold STS hulls versus the flyer load in green STS hulls and for that I use a red wad and more powder and #6 shot. Why you might ask. Well, it is because on my belt I can have a gold and green next to each other in the double loops. I load up for the popper or flyer and with the gold I get a better and harder hit and send the clay or can higher and with the green in the other chamber I have at it with the wide pattern load. Gamey? I guess so, but I am old school from when we had huge tombstone shotgun targets that needed the ooomph to get down and it was from that I found my higher powered loads would send a popper a lot higher than my square load shells would.
I hope that tells you this Cookie, you need to pattern everything for shotgun. All model shotguns, barrel lengths, chokes if you have them, etc are different and the loads you make change the patterns around at our CAS distances a lot. It is what I like, experimenting. I'll bet you like experimenting too. 

[hellgate]

Mr Doody,
We are of like mind when it comes to shotgunning in CAS. That is why I am DGB#29*.
You said:
"I insert primer, then powder and instead of the plastic wad I generally use, I put in an over powder card and then fibre wads and finally just the cup part of the red wads". I would suggest you put the bottom of the red wad down over the powder and skip the card wad. You'll get a better seal as the red wad over powder part will expand as it travels out the hull whereas your card is now undersized if it got press deep enough into the tapered hull to "squinch" it smaller. You can still use the shot cup as it saves the mouth of the hull so it isn't ironed out by the shot and stick in the chamber. I like the AA type wads because you can get 3 different heights out of them:
1) Cut out the "legs" (struts between the OP bottom and the shot cup) entirely, toss them, load what is left and you have a very short wad column to allow more powder or shot. You must pattern it to see if it produces donut shaped patterns. Adjust accordingly with filler wads.
2) Cut transversely (across) through the middle of the legs and rotate one of the halves 90 degrees, press them together and you have a medium length wad for medium loads
3) Load it intact for a longer wad for light "gamer" loads. Both the red and white wads are great for this adjusting of wad column.

When I have to shoot pop ups I always load a tight heavy loaded (80grs FFg+1 1/8oz #6s) round in the left barrel and a wide pattern load (no shot cup) of 1 1/8 oz #9s. As you said, the heavy load slams the faller down hard to flip the popper higher (and out of the smoke) for a more clear shot at the flyer.

* DGB stands for a SASS Wire group formed a couple years ago called the Dirty Gamey Bastards. The only requirement for membership was to confess to a "gamey" practice used in CAS matches. You just got one of several I employ.

[Howdy Doody]

Mr Doody,
We are of like mind when it comes to shotgunning in CAS. That is why I am DGB#29*.
You said:
"I insert primer, then powder and instead of the plastic wad I generally use, I put in an over powder card and then fibre wads and finally just the cup part of the red wads". I would suggest you put the bottom of the red wad down over the powder and skip the card wad. You'll get a better seal as the red wad over powder part will expand as it travels out the hull whereas your card is now undersized if it got press deep enough into the tapered hull to "squinch" it smaller. You can still use the shot cup as it saves the mouth of the hull so it isn't ironed out by the shot and stick in the chamber. I like the AA type wads because you can get 3 different heights out of them:
1) Cut out the "legs" (struts between the OP bottom and the shot cup) entirely, toss them, load what is left and you have a very short wad column to allow more powder or shot. You must pattern it to see if it produces donut shaped patterns. Adjust accordingly with filler wads.
I use a 11 ga card and the fibres are too I think. I bought this stuff way back when I started in on BP about ten years ago and I bought a 1000 of each. I get a great seal, the over powder card is the thicker of the two that were available then. I'd have to look but I think maybe 1/8 inch. I then install two of the felt wads and just the cup after cutting it loose from the legs. I experimented a bit with making additional cuts on the shot cup, but the 4 that the red wads have seem to work fine. I am shooting cylinder in my Bounty Hunter and the softness of the wads and the cup seem to give me a very even pattern on big sheets of cardboard placed out about 15 yards. I have very good luck getting the popper or flier usually, I say usually, because I missed both poppers on the stage at Winter Range and I don't forget that easily. I had a huge number of misses at WR and I don't know why, but it was operator error for sure. Doc Shapiro and I did the patterning as I experimented and the cardboard showed me just what I had and ended up with. Like I said all shotguns do not shoot the same. I have a Savage and a Baikal with imp/mod chokes and they are both very different with my same loads. You have to pattern to be sure. I know you know this, but I am throwing it out there for anyone that is trying to get BP to shoot knockdown, swingers or poppers/fliers. BP and smokeless are two different animals (sorry) when it comes to shotgunning.
2) Cut transversely (across) through the middle of the legs and rotate one of the halves 90 degrees, press them together and you have a medium length wad for medium loads
I'll give that a try. Just to toss it out there, lately I have been using Fiocci hulls from BPI and I bought about 500 from them pre primed when they had a sale. They are clear. The column is taller than the AA hulls and the STS too. So, I went to a taller plastic wad that is green colored to get a nice crimp. You can see the wad and the slight bend to the legs and they shoot just like the AA was for me, but the kicker is that I can load them about 4-5 times and with once fired AAs I only shot them once, because the hull frosts on me near the end and makes them hard to shuck in my shotguns.

3) Load it intact for a longer wad for light "gamer" loads. Both the red and white wads are great for this adjusting of wad column.
I have never used the white wads, but I do have a bag of the light pink ones and they are also similar. I don't really load for light loads. You get known for smoking up a stage and I wouldn't want anyone to think it was an impost-er up there.

When I have to shoot pop ups I always load a tight heavy loaded (80grs FFg+1 1/8oz #6s) round in the left barrel and a wide pattern load (no shot cup) of 1 1/8 oz #9s. As you said, the heavy load slams the faller down hard to flip the popper higher (and out of the smoke) for a more clear shot at the flyer.
Ok, we are on the same page. I load 80grs of Goex FF and #6 for my heavy loads, 65gr and 7 1/2 for my everyday all purpose load and as you can surmise, shotgunning is not my weak suit, it is pistol shooting. I never have issues with rifle (I shoot 44-40 now) or the shotgun, but man I stink when it comes to revolvers. I usually shoot West Fargo tuned ROAs and in anyone elses hand they would be great. They are 5 1/2. My favorites are 8" long Pietta 58 Remmies. I shoot them once in a while and usually don't miss, but the trigger guard mashes my middle finger knuckles and makes them swell up. They also take more maintenance. I also shoot those new fangled cartridge six guns too with about the same results as the ROAs and both sets of my RVs are 5 1/2 too. I just seem to do better with longer barrels I guess.

* DGB stands for a SASS Wire group formed a couple years ago called the Dirty Gamey Bastards. The only requirement for membership was to confess to a "gamey" practice used in CAS matches. You just got one of several I employ.

I know about DGBs, but I also know you can only get so gamey shooting the BP classes unless your name is Badlands Bud and I have seen him shoot FC and frontiersman with all stages under 30 sec. and more like 20-25 actually. He is not human however.  
Well I am off in the morning to shoot at Norco for my clubs first of the two annuals we have, Ambush. I will be shooting frontiersman with ROAs, Uberti 73, and Baikal Bounty Hunter and a lot of black powder. I think they might have a popper, they sometimes do, so I will be prepared.