BP Blowup

[Fox Creek Kid]

There is an interesting thread on the North South Skirmish website relating to an accident a fella had while pouring BP and the DUST was supposedly ignited by a static spark. I say "supposedly" as there are few details and I really don't know & hate to speculate w/o more facts. Here's the thread and you will need to read it all for any clues:

http://n-ssa.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=14862

[Jefro]

while pouring BP and the DUST was supposedly ignited by a static spark. I say "supposedly"

I say bologna. I've read all the stories for years since starting to shoot BP, far as I can tell they are all myth. I am conviced it takes "heat" or a hot spark to ignite BP, but that's just me. For BP dust to have a chance of igniting I'd think it would take a hugh amount like in a grain silo. I've read all the pros and cons from electrical engineers to BP know it alls, have yet to see a case where BP just ignites while handling it. I feel safe handling BP as long as I keep all heat sources, or a chance of a metal to metal hot spark away from my loading area.

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Drayton Calhoun]

Seems to me that in order to have an 'explosion' the powder dust would have to be contained to allow pressure to build up. Take a look at C4 plastic. You can roll a small ball and light it off and it burns like crazy but that's all. Just don't try to put it out or bang. I read the thread, but plastic funnels will create more static than aluminum. Never seen a BP blow up from static, even though I did read in Muzzleloader about a fellow in a snowmobile suit supposedly set off the primer in his flinter.

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Hmmmmm,  very interesting! Another discussion of "static vs BP".  I have met and spoken to Bryan Buck and have the utmost respect for him. If he believes that his accident happened the way he said it did, then he believes it happened that way, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure it actually happened the way he thinks.  I have personally tried to set off BP with different forms and amounts of electricity and couldn't get it done.  I spoke to a friend that worked for Dyno Nobel and Eagle Picher here in the Carthage, MO area and was told that after literally thousands of attempts over many years (this required by Federal Gov't as they were woking on their contracts) they couldn't accomplish it, no matter the concentration of powder, electricity or the delivery system. Some of the reason has already been explained in the posts we have been referred to. I just want to add two more facts of Physics that some are not taking into consideration. 1) NOTHING explodes as this refers to an INSTANTANEOUS action. However, all things  are combustible and oxydize at differing rates depending upon their physical make-up when the process starts. This brings us to 2) Liquids and solids do not burn...only gases. In order to get BP to ignite, enough HEAT has to be applied to cause the granules to literally vaporize and burn. BP granules or dust would not seem to have enough surface area per granule to allow enough heat to build up from an elctrical charge before the charge was dissipated. Now, if the heat source were more concentrated and not subject to rapid heat dissipation, ie, cigars, cigarettes, tiparillos, flame, hot metal, non-electrical sparks, vaporization would occur and the result would be....KABOOM!

The moral to all this fooferaw is to just keep high heat sources away from your BP and you shouldn't have any problems. Then there is the applicationof Murphy's Law!

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I have met and spoken to Bryan Buck and have the utmost respect for him. If he believes that his accident happened the way he said it did, then he believes it happened that way, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure it actually happened the way he thinks...

Therein lies the crux of the matter. I wouldn't know him from Adam. The story intrigues me however. I am assuming that since he is alive then it was obviously nothing on a large scale. I for one would sure like to know more facts of the matter. I have always believed that BP could not ignite by static electricity, however the DUST may be another matter as we all know that even flour dust can & does combust (ignite?) violently. All the experiments that I have seen have been on BP itself and not specifically on the dust. Correct me if wrong. 

[Jed Cooper]

Fellas, I'm no expert on the matter, but a prime example of dust (that you would think harmless) exploding would be the horrible effects of grain silos that turn into bombs. We have had a few here in Indiana. I doubt that if poured out on a table you could light it, or get it to burn. but concentrated dust within the confines of a grain elevator can, and does explode violently. I don't know what source of ignition causes them. I too would like to know more.    Jed

[rickk]

The deal with dust in a grain silo is that in dust form there is plenty of exposed surface area and plenty of air around the dust.  With BP dust the BP provides it's own air so that part is sort of irrelevant.

I wonder where the cigarette goes after the BP explosion and how unlikely it would be to find it.

[Mason Stillwell]

Every now and then these stories come out. We get the OH MY GOD THE WORLD WILL BLOW UP effect for a few days.

I would wager that there was an ignition source there  and it was NOT static.

But oh well the story goes on.

Mason ( non believer ) Stillwell 

[Mako]

After reading the story as the Fox Creek Kid suggested it was immediately OBVIOUS why there was and explosion...

Read the opening of that thread:

Dave France and the blowup while pouring powder

Postby Ken Hansgen, 11094 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:28 pm
Dave, while replying on another thread, recently reported that an electrical engineer told him he had had an accident while pouring powder into a container...

EVERYONE knows an Electrical Engineer must NEVER touch anything explosive or even flammable.  In fact a EE shouldn't even touch anything mechanical in nature.  If they do then they are just flirting with danger and the laws of nature.

The person that sold that gunpowder to that EE should have their license revoked and an immediate investigation into the safety of the general public should be started.

When I read things like this it makes me cringe, people that let EEs play with guns are the same type of people that would give a chainsaw to an 8 year old to play with.

Thanks Kid, we need to be made aware of situations like this.

~Mako

[rickk]

edit:

On second thought let me change my response to "Bye", rude dude.

[Drayton Calhoun]

After reading the story as the Fox Creek Kid suggested it was immediately OBVIOUS why there was and explosion...

Read the opening of that thread:

EVERYONE knows an Electrical Engineer must NEVER touch anything explosive or even flammable.  In fact a EE shouldn't even touch anything mechanical in nature.  If they do then they are just flirting with danger and the laws of nature.

The person that sold that gunpowder to that EE should have their license revoked and an immediate investigation into the safety of the general public should be started.

When I read things like this it makes me cringe, people that let EEs play with guns are the same type of people that would give a chainsaw to an 8 year old to play with.

Thanks Kid, we need to be made aware of situations like this.

~Mako

[fourfingersofdeath]

That guy who made the documentaries about finding the wrecks of teh Titanic, etc found that the Brittanic, (Titanic's sister ship which was sunk off the Dardenelles in WW2 and that ship that was supposedly sunk at the wharf in Cuba by Randolph Hearst to cobble up an excuse to attack Cuba and take over the sugar plantations, etc, sunk in no time flat because coal dust disturbed by a torpedo in the first case and an explosive charge in the second, caused devestating damage as the coal dust stirred up in the coal bunkers burnt in an instant and blew the bum out of both ships. They both sunk like stones.

This was a reasonably common fate with coal burning ships hit in the coal bunker apparently.

If you can get coal dust to explode, it seems possible that bp could suffer the same fate.

[wildman1]

Long as ya hit it with a torpedo or an explosive charge I would be willin ta believe ya could blow up a bean burrito. WM

[Mako]

Long as ya hit it with a torpedo or an explosive charge I would be willin ta believe ya could blow up a bean burrito. WM

Truer words have never been spoken...

~Mako

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Wildman,  Better someone blow up a bean burrito with some sort of explosive device than someone blowing up an explosive device due to the effects of a bean burrito. Dealing with a gaseous expulsion can cause all sorts of dire effects. But I guess most men already know this.

[wildman1]

Capt'n Monty, Sir. Ah was not even considerin dealin with ordinance that had "bean" processed in some way shape or form, just straight out of the box so ta speak, way too many variables for mah feeble mind ta deal with in any other manner. Besides ever body knows bean burritos become EXTREMELY unstable when ya start changin their chemical structure by addin acid and other stuff.                                                                                                                                                                                 Regards, WM

[Noz]

I am not an engineer but I believe that a large portion of the BP explosions reported have a tobacco factor involved.

[wildman1]

Or some other burnable plant substance. WM

[Shotgun Franklin]

The culprit seems to be dust. In grain elevators it's the concentration of dust floating in the silo that flashes not the grain itself. There's a good chance that good clean BP can't be ignited by static. There's also a very good chance that older dusty crumbly BP might be ignited by a spark of static. The big difference being that when a grain elevator has a flash/explosion of grain once the dust is consumed the reaction stops. With BP, the combustion/flash/explosion of BP dust is enough to set off the BP causing the explosion to continue. Now this is at a tremendous speed. If a substance burns fast enough then it's thought of as an explosion. Part of the problem being that a Layman calls the result an explosion while a Tech or Engineer sees it as a burn. The results likely don't matter to the guy holding the BP when it 'goes off'.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Very interesting report.

I read Charlie Hahn's remarks with interest.

Yes, I have seen the same photos that everybody else has on the internet showing you cannot ignite a pile of Black Powder with a good sized electrical spark. I particularly noted his comments that these photos are more of a stunt, and not something done in a controlled environment in a testing facility.

Regarding heat, a quick check of the Goex MSDS sheet states the auto ignition temperature is Approx. 464°C (867°F).

Explosive temperature (5 sec) Ignites @ approx. 427°C (801°F)

http://www.ocsresponds.com/ref/msds/msds-bp.pdf

A static spark does indeed create heat and lots of it.

No, I am not an Electrical Engineer, nor did I stay in a Motel Six last night. But I spent 24 years in the microwave industry and had yearly training on the effects of ESD (Electro Static Discharge) on sensitive micro electronic components. I saw plenty of photos of damage done by ESD to tiny components. Discharges at a level usually too small to be detected by the human body. Under the microscope they looked just like bomb craters on a runway.

Maximum charge built up on the human body can be up to 10 kV. Any static discharge, whether it is lightning or the spark you get from touching a doorknob after shuffling across a rug on a dry day, is basically the same. At a certain potential, the insulating nature of air breaks down and the charge discharges across the gap. The flash of light is created by superheated air.  Yes, there is heat involved.

Black Powder mills used to blow up with alarming frequency. Goex blew up a few years ago. Anti static shoes and clothing were a requirement in many powder manufacturing facilities after the dangers of static sparks and dust in the air became known.

Personally, I get nervous by those who cavalierly state they have read all there is to know about static discharge and Black Powder and declare it is all a myth.

Everything is a myth until somebody proves otherwise.

When dealing with Black Powder and static electricity, I prefer to err on the side of caution. Who knows what the actual level of concentration of dust in the air needs to be to get it to combust from a static spark? I certainly don't. And who knows what twist of fate may somehow put just the right concentration of dust in a confined spot while somebody is pouring powder from one container to another on a dry day? I don't, but I will not reject it happening just because of some photos on the Internet.