Old Time Primers As For Loading Ammo

[Shotgun Franklin]

I've never heard this come up and it kinda fits here so;
During the second half of the 1800s were the primers used on cartridge ammo all the same? Did they have different sizes? Were there different power primers, some hotter than others? Were primers interchangeable between the different cartridge makers? I'd like to restrict this to reloadable ammo not the internal primers.

[Fox Creek Kid]

There were at least 5 or 6 different primer types that I know of off the top of my head as metallic cartridges were in their infancy.

Martin, Berdan, Benét, Orcutt, Winchester, etc., etc.

[Shotgun Franklin]

This is one of those things I don't know enough about.
As protective as the early companies tended to be about wanting their own ammo used in their own guns it figured that the components were about the same. I did know that there were several different types of primers but not who used what. So now I wonder when the current system came to be? Boxer type in the US; large rifle, small rifle, large pistol, small pistol and when did the Magnum Primer come to be? I've read tons on guns and ammo but this just never came up.

[JimBob]

The greatest variety in primers differences in that period seems to be in those used for shotshells.Berdan primers for sporting and military use seem to be limited to about three sizes-1,1 1/2,and 2.UMC and WRA were interchangeable if the number primer was the same.UMC had primer numbers listed by size and application as 0,1,1 1/2,2,2 1/2,3.These are all Boxer primers.The same applied to Remington but they did use some oddball primers early on.Primer standardization didn't really come about till the development and common use of smokeless powder.Looking at old catalogs US manufacturers had pretty well standardized on boxer primers and sizes by WW1.Berdan primed shells were fading fast here by the 1890s as far as sporting ammunition was concerned with the exception of some shotshells.

The 1930 Peter's catalog still list primers by size numbers,by 1939 Stoegers list primers as large or small rifle and pistol.As for "Magnum" primers there is no listing of them or use indicated in the 1954 Stoegers catalog or the 1955 Lyman Ideal Handbook No.40 by name.

[Shotgun Franklin]

This is good info. It seems it's very possible to read a lot about gun history without much coming up about primers. I assumed a lot that I assumed right but it's nice to know for sure.

[Curley Cole]

Slightly o/t, but thought you'alll would like to see some oldie primers a pard gave me when cleanin out his loading box.

curley

[minerotago]

I know very little about primers except that back in the old days it must have been somewhat confusing and I can safely say that there had to be more confusion then than there is now - the reason I say this is that apparently in some cases primers may have come complete and in other cases you bought the 'percussion cap' - NOT the ones for percussion gun nipples separately from the anvils OR you bought percussion caps for centre fire cartridges separately because the shell had a built in nipple - I have tins here labled variusly 'Eley percussion caps for shotgun paper cases - No1' 'Eley percussion caps for shotgun paper cases No 4 .410' ''UMC number 2 primers' 'Kynoch Anvils for Central Fire Breech loading cases' ' Kynoch Anvils for Medium Central Fire Breech Loading Cases' 'Eley Anvils for Central Fire Breech Loading Cases' Winchester Improved Primers No.3W paper shotshells - Patent 1878' 'Winchester No2 Improved Primers for Center Fire Pistol Cartridges - Patent 1878' 'UMC No2 Copper primers' 'Winchester New No4 Primers For leader and Repeater Shotshells Patent 1896, 1900, 1903' 'Remington UMC Central Fire Trimmed Edge Foil lined Percussion caps'

It all get awful confusing!

[Trailrider]

To add to the mix  the Army used inside primers in the .50-70 Gov't and .45-70 Gov't and .45 Colt's Revolver and .45 Revolver Ball (Schofield) cartridges. The two basic types were the Martin Bar Primer, which was a narrow bar spanning the cartridge head, with the priming compound held therein.  The Benet Cup was a slightly different design.  Both required gilding metal (typically called "copper", though there were actually of similar metal to modern bullet jackets) cases that were soft enough for the firing pin to dent the head of the case hard enough to set off the priming compound inside. Both primers were held in place by crimps in the case wall just forward of the primer piece.  IIRC, the Martin Bar was held in with two stab crimps, whereas the Benet Cup had three stabs.  The military didn't go to externally-primed brass cases until the mid-1880's.

IIRC, until the 1880's or maybe later, the majority of commercial central fire primers in the U.S. were of the Berdan type, with the anvil an integral part of the primer pocket with two flash holes.  British Major Boxer invented the primer with an integral anvil (although it is applied separately to the primer cup after the compound is loaded.  For whatever reason, countries flipped the useage of Berdan and Boxer, so today we use the latter and Europe still uses the former. Go figure.

Then, of course, there were the changes to priming compounds. Fulminate of mercury was the main compound used in both percussion caps (on cap and ball guns), and then rimfire cartridges, and finally central fire primers.  Problem with fulminate of mercury is the mercury embrittles brass. Of course it doesn't matter much...until you stop throwing the brass away, and start reloading.  So, sometime in the early 20th Century, the priming compound was changed to use pottasium chlorate.  That got ride of the embrittlement problem, but the chlorate turns to chloride when ignited, and that started corroding the barrels unless cleaned with water to disolve the salts.  Winchester, somewhere in the 1920's or so, developed the Stayneless primer, and Remington came out with the Klean-Bore lead styphnate.  Of course the military didn't change over to non-corrosive primers until WWII.  M-1 Carbine ammo is non-corrosive, but it wasn't until 1953 that we got rid of corrosive priming in .30-06 military ammo.

Now, with the concerns over lead in the environment, they've had to go to something else!   

[Andy Griffth]

I'd just like to know what the technical name for the primers made in the first two decades of the 20th century that "protected" all but the very center of the primer on most repeating rifle loads were designated as being. I have a box of .35 Remington with these "protected" primers which are a ring around the edge of the primer.

[Shotgun Franklin]

I have read that Primers were rebuilt, or reloaded ?, as recently as the Depression. I'd think that was a really tedious chore.

[Trailrider]

Dangerous, too, if not done extremely carefully! Even then, accidents could and did/do happen!  Original primer compounds were primarily fulminate of mercury, which is very powerful and quite tricky to handle in the "raw" state.  The North American Indian tribes were sometimes (or so the story goes) able to pick up fired military cartridge cases and alledgedly used match heads to reload the inside primers. I can NOT verify this, dispite having seen it in print. I certain would NOT recommend trying anything like it. Mostly the cartridges supposedly reprimed were inside-primed folded-head Martin bar or Benet cup military.

IIRC correctly, magnum primers appeared sometime in the late 1950's or early '60's, when slower and slower-burning powders were developed and made available to the reloading public for "improved" and overbore capacity magnum cartridges.  Magnum primers basically use compounds with increased brisance...a longer burning time and increased volume of flaming gases and glowing particles.

Happy Holidays, all!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Dangerous, too, if not done extremely carefully! Even then, accidents could and did/do happen!  Original primer compounds were primarily fulminate of mercury, which is very powerful and quite tricky to handle in the "raw" state.  The North American Indian tribes were sometimes (or so the story goes) able to pick up fired military cartridge cases and alledgedly used match heads to reload the inside primers. I can NOT verify this, dispite having seen it in print. I certain would NOT recommend trying anything like it. Mostly the cartridges supposedly reprimed were inside-primed folded-head Martin bar or Benet cup military.

IIRC correctly, magnum primers appeared sometime in the late 1950's or early '60's, when slower and slower-burning powders were developed and made available to the reloading public for "improved" and overbore capacity magnum cartridges.  Magnum primers basically use compounds with increased brisance...a longer burning time and increased volume of flaming gases and glowing particles.

Happy Holidays, all!

When I first started shooting, I frequented "The Gun Barn" in Anderson, Indiana.  The place and the owner were older than dirt.  I would listen carefully to his "tales."  He wasn't the type to "embellish," however.  He told me that during WWII, he and his Dad reloaded 22 rimfire cartridges the same way Eskimos have been doing for many years.  You carefully cut the striker tip off a "strike anywhere" match with a razor blade.  Then you soak it in some type of liquid which I don't remember - alcohol, I think.  Then when the compound is in a liquified state, you spin the case as fast as you can in a hand drill while another person holds the mix over the opening and lets one drop of compound drop into the spinning case.  Centrifugal force causes the compound to re-fill the rim.  Let it dry, add powder (he said they used BP, Bullseye, & Unique primarily, because that's what they had on hand since the War Effort used all new components and civilians basically couldn't get anything.)  His family had a large (10' X 14') piece of boiler plate steel from somewhere, that was mounted at an angle with some steel target hangers in front, (also angled downward, so the bullets went straight down into the ground) so they had PLENTY of lead available to cast from decades of shooting.  When I was going there in the 70s, we could still pay to shoot there for about $.25/hr right outside the door to the barn, which he & his Dad had made into a gun store in the late '50s or early '60s.  Any pistol caliber was allowed, lead OR jacketed, but the only rifles allowed were 22s & lead-nose 22 WMR.   It was a cool place and he had a LOT of guns and other neat stuff there.  I heard that in the late 80s/early 90s a "hoodrat" had accosted him; he pulled out his piece and killed the SOB.  Then the perp's family sued ... and won, because he had shot after the a..hole had started to turn, so it became an "execution."  Said perp was a MAJOR career criminal, but the crotchety old fart did the "legally" wrong thing at the wrong time.  And was honest enough to own up to it.  He was in his late 70s at the time.  Please don't tell me that it couldn't have happened the precise way I told it - I'm relating the true story from memory nearly 20 years old, PLUS I didn't live near there anymore so I don't know ALL the facts & circumstances!  But he was a cool old coot and I'm sorry his life ended the way it did.  (EVERYTHING was lost in the lawsuit.)  He was a character all right!  But I learned a lot from him!




Anybody know if there is a primer-seating stem (or whatever it's called) that is dished out so I can seat round-top old primers?  My neighbor gave me about 20 or 30 he found and gave to me.  I doubt they'd be any good, but I'd like to DE-commission them and make some "old style" dummy cartridges, but I don't want to crush them.  Ideally, the part would fit a Lee hand-priming tool.  I suppose I could "dish" 'em out with my Dremel.  But any suggestions are welcome.  They appear to be LPP or LRP.  (same diameter, different length skirt, but I haven't measured them to tell WHICH ones they are.)  I want to make belt dummies and also Military dummies.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Dremel Tools come with a blunt grinding bit that might work. You'd need to put the stem in a vice and carefully grind down the end. OR try putting a soft piece of plastic or rubber between the primer and seating stem. It ought to seat the primer before it would smash it flat.

[minerotago]

Dangerous, too, if not done extremely carefully! Even then, accidents could and did/do happen!  Original primer compounds were primarily fulminate of mercury, which is very powerful and quite tricky to handle in the "raw" state.  The North American Indian tribes were sometimes (or so the story goes) able to pick up fired military cartridge cases and alledgedly used match heads to reload the inside primers. I can NOT verify this, dispite having seen it in print. I certain would NOT recommend trying anything like it. Mostly the cartridges supposedly reprimed were inside-primed folded-head Martin bar or Benet cup military.

IIRC correctly, magnum primers appeared sometime in the late 1950's or early '60's, when slower and slower-burning powders were developed and made available to the reloading public for "improved" and overbore capacity magnum cartridges.  Magnum primers basically use compounds with increased brisance...a longer burning time and increased volume of flaming gases and glowing particles.

Happy Holidays, all!

Here in New Zealand I believe that Maori women were caught out trying to purchase eyelets for use by their men during the Maori wars - the eyelets were used to place a match head in and to use in place of percussion caps on percussion guns!

[Curley Cole]

here are step by step directions on how to "reload" them primers. Guy says ya can do em one a minute..get goin guys

curley

[Short Knife Johnson]

Isn't there a part missed about making a paste with rubbing alcohol?  The match heads would be much easier to handle suspended in a slurry.

How many firings would a primer handle though.  It's a pretty rough life and I can see failures after only a couple uses with even medium pressure smokeless loads.  Black powder loads may be more forgiving.